Have we reached the pinnacle of markers

[Ov3rmind]

Re: Have we reached the pinnacle of markers

Originally posted by Lohman446
Speed - this debate is always there, but have we reached the pinnacle of speed - I have some seen some reference to new trigger systems that put our double triggers to shame that could push usable BPS into the 30s somewhere. But have we reached the point that we can no longer gain tactically usable speed. BTW, there is some question if we did not already surpass any tactical advantage to speed increases.

Yeah, I can totally agree. I think we will keep seeing faster and faster guns (I would bet money that in five years people pumping out 25+ BPS will be somewhat common), but it has no real advantages in the game. At best, it will allow paint prices to drop.

Loader placement - even with such things as warps and Q loaders it seems that many of us, myself included, are happy with that loader on top of a low rise. Backpack paint backs I think go over about as well as remote air systems, I just dont like all that cord, hose, whatever.

Actually, I think this is an area that still has TONS of room to be worked on. In the next few years, it may become one of the fastest developing technology aspects in paintball.

Feed systems - ok, there's room for improvement, we have guns that can outshoot Halos, and if we are going to get in the 30s we need to improve these. However, two companies seem to have patent locked the market on loaders, so innovation will be slow.

We'll see how this goes. I really do believe loader technology is still no where near what it will become over the next few years. Wait for 30+ BPS hoppers that are almost as light and small as Revys.

Efficiency - I am not talking 2000 shots off a 45/45 tank with this - I am talking a marker made so efficient that 12 grams come back into style. Is this even possible? Is it desirable or has the use of tanks as stocks made the "part" of the marker design itself. The efficiency differences today are so little that I dare call this field even for all useful purposes.

I think effiency will eventually top out at around 2100 shots or so off of a 68/4500. There isn't much more they can do with that.

Alternate air source - I keep coming back to this in theory, if it only takes 60PSI to fire a marker, can we not design some electrically powered "on board" mini compressor that does away with the need for compressed air. BTW, aside from convenience, I think in reality that the compressed air tanks are the most hazardous item in paintball today when used correctly.

Agreed.

Reliability - when was the last time you saw a top notch marker down at the field. Yes, from time to time all markers have issues, some more than others, but I think that the reliability of all markers is rising, and mags (with level ten tuning issues) have there own quirks. The playing field is levelling here as well.

I actually think reliability has gotten worse over the years. Look at the most recent Mags, Vikings, and Angels. All three of them used to be considered tanks, now all of them have a few notorious problems after their companies have attempted to improve them.

Anti-chop systems - with both mechanical and ACE systems available to most high end guns... well they can be improved how much better can we get than the level 10 with virtually zero chops when set up right.

A break beam eye combined with a Lvl 10 type system is just about the safest thing you could do. Hardly any guns employ both, but I think we will see more in the coming years.

Consistency - paint to barrel match? Frankly I can shoot within +/-5 over a chrono, consistent enough for all useful purposes.

I think guns have topped out consistancy wise.

On board gadgets - with the exception of built in chronographs and self regulating speed systems, no. So I don't want to check my e-mail from the back stand up.

There is still tons of room for electronic advancements, just watch.

I could be wrong, maybe there are no longer any performance advantages out there. This makes moving forward as a manufacturer harder, because now it will be the hype, the color, the looks that sell markers, and performance will be all the same, or so close as to make no difference. I am looking to answer the question, what is the next big improvement in paintball [Edit: MARKERS} - and its not an anno job.

Yeh, I edited this on Mephs reply, because that brought up thigns, Im not talking rules, players, etc. I want to see what the next technological improvement looks to be.

Weight and size. I think we are entering an age of of sub 2 lb electronic guns. You'll also notice the one tube design is becoming more popular. I also think simpler designs will also become more common.

[can'tthink of1]

I'm kinda sick of everyone wanting a faster marker, they think having a marker that has a 30bps cap will save them in a game, while he/she may only be able to ahoot about 16bps without a bounce. I'd like to see maybe mech markers, and pump markers from companies, just to get away from the quest for speed.

[Wes Janson]

I recall reading once, I believe in a book about the Skunk Works, a quote from an engineer: "90% of the time and money is usually spent getting the last 10% of performance possible." Personally I would say that high-end marker technology is at least at 90%, perhaps even 95% of it's physical and legal limitations. If those same markers could be made for half, or a fourth the cost, that would be a true revolution. Talking about your $2,000 ubergun is fine, but until the technology within it is available to the average Joes in paintball, the advancement of the sport's technology on average is not going anywhere.

Speed - this debate is always there, but have we reached the pinnacle of speed - I have some seen some reference to new trigger systems that put our double triggers to shame that could push usable BPS into the 30s somewhere. But have we reached the point that we can no longer gain tactically usable speed. BTW, there is some question if we did not already surpass any tactical advantage to speed increases.
Speed is irrelevant, because it's not going to be legal, and because of basic human limitations.

Loader placement - even with such things as warps and Q loaders it seems that many of us, myself included, are happy with that loader on top of a low rise. Backpack paint backs I think go over about as well as remote air systems, I just dont like all that cord, hose, whatever.
Personally, I think very little work has been put into the idea of combining guppy packs, loaders, and air systems into one package. It's not a matter of technology, I think, so much as market interest. Self-coiling remotes (like garden hoses or portable queue poles) are one option, as would be some sort of warpfeed backpack/tank/harness that could run over your shoulder, or perhaps down your arm. There's lots of possibility, but no one is experimenting with it yet.

Feed systems - ok, there's room for improvement, we have guns that can outshoot Halos, and if we are going to get in the 30s we need to improve these. However, two companies seem to have patent locked the market on loaders, so innovation will be slow.
Again, a feed system that can keep up with 30 bps isn't of much use on the field. A feed system that eliminates the need to reload, and gives you a lower profile, and lightens the gun up-that would be useful.

Efficiency - I am not talking 2000 shots off a 45/45 tank with this - I am talking a marker made so efficient that 12 grams come back into style. Is this even possible? Is it desirable or has the use of tanks as stocks made the "part" of the marker design itself. The efficiency differences today are so little that I dare call this field even for all useful purposes.
A 68/45 is going to give you all the air you need. Perhaps some fields need to start charging less.

Alternate air source - I keep coming back to this in theory, if it only takes 60PSI to fire a marker, can we not design some electrically powered "on board" mini compressor that does away with the need for compressed air. BTW, aside from convenience, I think in reality that the compressed air tanks are the most hazardous item in paintball today when used correctly.
Physics says that unless you intend to use a physical contact force, like a piston, compressed air is the only real way to shoot a paintball. Fifty years from now we'll still be using compressed air of some kind or another (perhaps a specific gas mixture, or perhaps additives, or perhaps who knows what-but it will be a compressed gas).

Reliability - when was the last time you saw a top notch marker down at the field. Yes, from time to time all markers have issues, some more than others, but I think that the reliability of all markers is rising, and mags (with level ten tuning issues) have there own quirks. The playing field is levelling here as well.
Reliability of mechanical parts is probably more a matter of testing and of quality design than anything else. I don't see radical design changes to make guns more efficient, I just see better quality control.

Anti-chop systems - with both mechanical and ACE systems available to most high end guns... well they can be improved how much better can we get than the level 10 with virtually zero chops when set up right.
Probably...but with a properly configured lvl 10, chopping isn't an issue for me any longer. At all. No matter how crappy the paint is. Again, the technology is there, it's only a matter of people choosing and implementing it.

Consistency - paint to barrel match? Frankly I can shoot within +/-5 over a chrono, consistent enough for all useful purposes.
It would be nice to see some improvements in paint quality, which would be reflected in the consistency, but even if we don't, I think we're already at 95%+.

On board gadgets - with the exception of built in chronographs and self regulating speed systems, no. So I don't want to check my e-mail from the back stand up.
There's always potential, but it's not likely to be something we will see for years to come. Theoretically you could throw sensors out in front of you at the break, and have your gun warn you/give you tactical information, and then display it on a HUD inside your mask, but the costs involved aren't likely to allow it onto the civilian market for another few decades.

[68magOwner]

as far as speed goes, i just empitied a few hoppers out of my new imp (have been shootin mech up untill now), anything faster than what i just did is more scarry than it is practical, i can do like 15-17 and i will probably never NEED to do that in a real game.

[Magglerock]

The real

question is, who can AFFORD to shoot faster. I don't know about you, but the prosepct of going through 5-10 cases of paint a day sounds very expensive.

[FooTemps]

Pinnacle of markers? no way...

It's just a dead end for the path we are going. Like TK has said. We could make markers that recharge at 100bps with input pressure of 4500. There could be preloading bolts that fire a ball and load another. We could have half pound guns with these changes. But is the industry going that way? NO. The industry knows they can juice all the ignorant "bling bling" ballers by releasing a new anno style, new trigger, and new lpr model on a marker and calling it ALL NEW, REVOLUTIONIZED, and FAR SUPERIOR TO LAST YEAR'S MODEL. Those players eat it up, they buy into the hype and the companies like it. Why change something that earns you money? Not all companies want paintball to progress forward in terms of technology. They just want paintball to get bigger.

I think that bps is reaching the highest it will go. It wouldn't be worth it to go any higher. There is no positive return for the expended resoures.

Loaders are still young IMO. I mean, we're still using AGITATED LOADERS. I know that Manike used to have a design that was awesome. The only problem i see int he loader department is that 2 or 3 companies hold the patents to hopper designs. These patents will restrict the further development of hoppers if these companies want to enforce these patents.

Efficiency and air also still young. I mean, nitro/compressed air came out in the 1990's. We still have yet to optimize the useage of our fairly new source. Everyone is caught up in LP inefficiency. If the whole industry went HP, we'd have even more efficicnet markers. Higher pressure = smaller chamber = less air used. See, when you think about it we have a long way to go in development of air/hoppers.

The current style of markers are reaching the end of the road. All this lp, debounce, and hopper influenced industry will eventually change to something far more advanced. It's just that no one is going to bring the industry in that direction.

[tony3]

I personally wish that everything just stayed the same. I like paintball as it is.

[trains are bad]

full auto would take all the fun out of it.. Then everyone would just sit there holding down there trigger shooting 13+bps constantly, it would be really boring..

I wonder if people who make these statements have played F/A much. I HAVE. I played a 20-on-20 24 hour woods game with F/A allowed, (10bps cap) and play outlawball on F/A all the time. I'm telling you, nothing about the game changes. 5 minutes into it, you forget about it being F/A and play paintball exactly like before. You don't (necesarily) shoot more paint, nobody gets hurt, nothing, it's exactly the same.

[Meph]

Originally posted by FooTemps
Pinnacle of markers? no way...

It's just a dead end for the path we are going.

That's just it right there. The end of the path possibly... for the poppet valve style markers. Timmy, Angel, Impulse, Diadem, et cetera. These are all basically brothers despite their differences. They are more similar to each other than they are different.


However what about OTHER systems that aren't even in paintball? I know there's a few out there that just aren't miniaturized yet enough to be used in paintball.

Like the Nova or other Spool valves, the idea from that was from a much larger version used at auto-races and sporting events to launch T-shirts into the audience. After miniaturized and some developing, the similar valve system has now been incorporated into paintball. And with people tinkering making kits like Evolve bolt kits, the efficiency ALONG with performance are way up there! I mean 2000+ shots off a 68/4500 tank with a MATRIX? Off an 03Shocker? Yep! They actually guarantee it that theirs are the most efficient.

So until companies can utalize other systems out there, not much is going to change. Performance is about as good as it gets for them, which is why the sex-factor of different editions (aka Different bodies!) are so popular.

[Gadget]

I can see the tournament scene imploding within the next couple of years, simply due to the volume of paint being flung. I reckon we'll see 30bps markers + loaders hit the scene and effectively kill movement in games.....then the promoters and organisers are going to have to have a BIG rethink on how the game is being run.

In 5 years time I'd like to see all markers have a minimum trigger pull weight, which would hopefully cap ROF to a reasonable figure and allow the game to become one based on tactics, accuracy, movement and teamwork again - rather than the accuracy-by-volume game it is at the moment.

I'd hope that marker design will look at trying to reduce the size of the whole package (marker + loader + propellant), while improving on consistency, efficiency and simplicity (for the sake of maintenance). Take the Matrix/DM4 for example - great marker, but how many o-rings on that bolt? Imagine a marker with only one vital seal which you ever needed to replace....mmmmm, I like that idea.

I think the Q-loader system is starting down the right road - they've removed the reliance on batteries and shrunk the entire package down. It's only let down by the fact that no markers are designed to make proper use of it - so you have to have hoses, adaptors, brackets etc.

Imagine a paintball marker designed specifically to function with a Q-loader.....something along the lines of a P90 firearm, with the loader slotting onto the body of the marker....no hoses, no protruding hoppers, no batteries required.

Combine that with smaller regs and smaller air bottles (thanks to improved efficiency and not needing to fire as much paint) and we could see some very small packages coming onto the market.

The other area which I think needs a lot of work is paint itself. Can anyone honestly say that the quality of paint has improved in the last 10 years? I was firing RPS back then which was just as good as the best around today.

If we're forced to move away from the huge paint volumes being used today, perhaps that will be the opportunity for a redesign of paint itself.....if we're firing less perhaps we'll be willing to pay more for a 'perfect' ball, which only breaks where you want it to and doesn't deform due to temperature or humidity changes.

[breg]

Re: Have we reached the pinnacle of markers

Originally posted by Lohman446
I'm sure this question comes up from time to time, and those that say yes are proven wrong time and time again, but lets look at the newest things that could be added to paintball markers, are they even advantages. My ideas.

Speed - this debate is always there, but have we reached the pinnacle of speed - I have some seen some reference to new trigger systems that put our double triggers to shame that could push usable BPS into the 30s somewhere. But have we reached the point that we can no longer gain tactically usable speed. BTW, there is some question if we did not already surpass any tactical advantage to speed increases.

Hmmm, I think that speed is becomming too important to many players and use it as a shortcut to skill and bragging rights. In all honesty Anything over 20+ BPS is more than over kill. No need to shoot that fast when all it takes is one break.

Loader placement - even with such things as warps and Q loaders it seems that many of us, myself included, are happy with that loader on top of a low rise. Backpack paint backs I think go over about as well as remote air systems, I just dont like all that cord, hose, whatever.

The main thing is that people are resitant to changes when it comes to something that we might not recognize as broken. What I would prefer is a loader that is placed further back on the gun, almost like a bull-pup set up.

Feed systems - ok, there's room for improvement, we have guns that can outshoot Halos, and if we are going to get in the 30s we need to improve these. However, two companies seem to have patent locked the market on loaders, so innovation will be slow.

Feed systems can be improved, but I doubt that we will see anything truly revolutionary for a long time. We will just keep seeing increases in feed rates.

Efficiency - I am not talking 2000 shots off a 45/45 tank with this - I am talking a marker made so efficient that 12 grams come back into style. Is this even possible? Is it desirable or has the use of tanks as stocks made the "part" of the marker design itself. The efficiency differences today are so little that I dare call this field even for all useful purposes.

This could really be an issue. Though I doubt that 12 grams will come back into style, mostly due to the fact that it's damn near impossible to get that many shots off a 12 gram. That, and again people are used to and like having the tank. Though I agree with your saying that the tank is the most dangerous part of paintball. I mean c'mon that is two and a half tons of pressure per suqare inch right next to my chin...

Alternate air source - I keep coming back to this in theory, if it only takes 60PSI to fire a marker, can we not design some electrically powered "on board" mini compressor that does away with the need for compressed air. BTW, aside from convenience, I think in reality that the compressed air tanks are the most hazardous item in paintball today when used correctly.

This would be interesting. If this would come about it would take the paintball world by storm; then no one would buy it because Smart Parts has a patent on it, or Dynasty doesn't use them. Another thing that would be interesting about this is a power source of the compressor and the marker. Maybe if batteries got better. Also, I think it would be cool and all, but I would not use one due to the fact that there is just one more thing on my gun that can go wrong.

Reliability - when was the last time you saw a top notch marker down at the field. Yes, from time to time all markers have issues, some more than others, but I think that the reliability of all markers is rising, and mags (with level ten tuning issues) have there own quirks. The playing field is levelling here as well.

This is another issue that can be tackeled. I would like to see a high end gun with the reliability of a Tippmann. If I'm going to pay X thousand dollars for a gun then I want it to be able to take a beating. That and so many of those high enders feel like they are going to break in my hands. That,and if they break, I would like to see modular, easily accessible parts that could be swapped out in a matter of seconds.

Anti-chop systems - with both mechanical and ACE systems available to most high end guns... well they can be improved how much better can we get than the level 10 with virtually zero chops when set up right.

I think that these are at thier high point. The Level 10 is my personal favorite, though it can be a pain to break in and get properly adjusted.

[B[Consistency - paint to barrel match? Frankly I can shoot within +/-5 over a chrono, consistent enough for all useful purposes.[/B]

This one doesn't bother me too much. I fire a few down the chrono range and figure out a rough average, round to the nearest ten and set me marker to fire that far below the field limit. (EX: Field limit is 300 I fire five shots at 295, 297, 289, 290, 298 add that together and divide by 5 you get 293 and then round to the nearest 10 you get 290.)

On board gadgets - with the exception of built in chronographs and self regulating speed systems, no. So I don't want to check my e-mail from the back stand up.

Yeah, some of those really do seem gratitudious. The shot counter is like the odometer of the paintball world, the timers can be really handy, but do I really need infrared text messaging, thermometers, etc?

I could be wrong, maybe there are no longer any performance advantages out there. This makes moving forward as a manufacturer harder, because now it will be the hype, the color, the looks that sell markers, and performance will be all the same, or so close as to make no difference. I am looking to answer the question, what is the next big improvement in paintball [Edit: MARKERS} - and its not an anno job.

The next big improvement will be a total blindside. It's going to be one of those things that you will kick youself for not thinking up first. Possibily it could be a marker that breaks down and reassembles totally with out tools and that can be converted to any style of play in seconds with out marjor overhauling. Just imagine ... remove part A (CLICK!) attach part B (CLICK!) remove the asa and replace with a 12 gram adapter and a new feed neck and you have a stock class. That is probably not going to happen, but I stick to the statement the the next big innovation will be a total blind side and make the man who develops it very rich.

[Cort95]

Excellent point about paint volume/pricing Gadget. I am equally amazed at the lack of progress at the grassroots level in the last 4 years as I was at the progress in the 4 years previous to that while I was gone. It looks as though we are, for now, in a period of consolidation.
I am not experienced with the tournament scene, but I believe commodity marker technology has reached a point of diminishing returns. Manufacturers are probably already aware of designs that will increase range and accuracy (by changing the projectile) and feed rates (by changing the feed system). However, it seems likely these changes would increase the complexity and price of the markers, and as yet a recreational market for this type of gadget is not in place. Until this technology becomes commoditized, and manufacturers, players, and organizers find a way to put it to use , I doubt we'll see a great deal of change in the way the game is played.
Certainly, the current projectile seems to be near the end of the innovation path, N2 being the most recent real advancement and the one that has led the game in it's current iteration of evolution. More promising is the idea of new formats and techniques on the field, as I don't see anything on the horizon that will push gravity feed constant air markers out of dominance for the masses needing simple, affordable equipment to get them in the game. The next big push in this area should be the perfecting of manufacturing techniques in order to increase the availability of performance/features to the average player.
There are people a lot smarter than me working on these issues, however, and I can't wait to be surprised by what they come up with.