Could the cocker shoot farther?!

[Magluvr]

Ok....

I know that many of you have heard this debate many times about cockers shooting farther blah, blah, blah...

But, I was just thinking about it and something popped into my head. Is it possible that a closed bolt system would have a flatter trajectory than an open bolt system?

In both these virtual simulations the marker is being shot very slowly (aka 1bps). It does matter.

The reason being that in firing a closed bolt system, the ball is completely at rest (not moving at all).

The open bolt system, when it pushes the ball forward into firing position is causing the ball to roll forward. Since the ball when shot is actually rolling, it would be the opposite of the flatline effect (b/c the ball is "rolling" the opposite direction.)

So essentially if the bore was loose enough on the ball, it wouldn't stop the roll, and actually cause the ball's trajectory down range to drop more than it should.

Hence, the cocker would have flatter trajectory and longer range!

This if true would prove a couple things:
1) Why markers like the cocker seem to have a lower rate of fire before "visible" (not speed related) shoot down. Because as the cocker shoots faster it acts more and more like an open bolt and therefore less range, even though the chronograph may show that it is shooting the same exact speed.
2) Closed bolt markers then could actually shoot farther.

P.S. Look at the galactic zbody, it only spun the ball for a very little while and it could produce the flatline effect. So, I don't think that it is too small a "spin distance" for it to have any effect, sort of argument would be valid.

[FooTemps]

cockers dont' shoot further... period...

300fps = 300fps = 300fps = 300fps

That means that if the ball travelled for 1 second and then stopped suddenly, it would have travelled 300 feet...

300 feet per second

edit: AHHH! heh, sorry bout not reading into it enough, knee jerk reaction type response.
It still doesn't matter, the ball is moved so fast it doesn't really roll...

[Magluvr]

READ BEYOND THE TITLE!!!!!

Please, for future posters read the little argument before commenting.

The flatline will shoot farther and the balls coming out the end of the barrel are going at 300fps!

So the answer is:

"No, 300fps != 300fps necessarily in distance terms." (!= meaning does NOT equal.)

And no this isn't an argument solely for the possibility of longer range on a cocker. I used the cocker as an example since it is the most widely known and identified with of any closed bolt marker out there.

[ScatterPlot]

I see where you're coming from. However, I don't know if the ball would necessarily roll too much. There's not very much friction and I think inertia would keep it from spinning without something with high friction.


PS-Man I hate it when people respond according to title alone!!!!

[spantol]

Re: Could the cocker shoot farther?!

This claim seems to be the key to the whole thing, and I'm not buying it:

Originally posted by Magluvr
The open bolt system, when it pushes the ball forward into firing position is causing the ball to roll forward. Since the ball when shot is actually rolling, it would be the opposite of the flatline effect (b/c the ball is "rolling" the opposite direction.)

I've just done some quick-and-dirty "experimenting" with a mag bolt, some paintballs, and a barrel, and it doesn't appear to me that the ball does much, if any, rolling while the bolt is pushing it. If there's no rolling occuring, the argument falls apart.

[Magluvr]

spantol-

Did you try with just the ball in the breach?
How about with a stack of balls on top?

Just curious if there is any difference, I haven't had time outside of schoolwork to test the idea.

[Joni]

Well, we have seen TK's pictures of a ball being fired. I guess they are being shot from an automag, and you can clearly see that there is NO spin on the ball. The whole argument dies with that...

[trains are bad]

It was cool theory though, props. BTW I go "=/="

[Glickman]

ok well yes hes right about the fps thing, but most people buy a cocker for its flatter trajectory. while i dont know exactly why it does have one, it does, maybe because they have more time to recharge (u know like in milliseconds) than other guns, i actually find tho, that in the SAME CONDITIONS with a fps difference of only 5 fps, my TRIX shoots with a flatter trajectory...

[spantol]

Let's see your data...

Originally posted by Glickman
ok well yes hes right about the fps thing, but most people buy a cocker for its flatter trajectory. while i dont know exactly why it does have one, it does, maybe because they have more time to recharge (u know like in milliseconds) than other guns, i actually find tho, that in the SAME CONDITIONS with a fps difference of only 5 fps, my TRIX shoots with a flatter trajectory...

[SlartyBartFast]

What on Earth is a "flater trajectory"?

Unless you're using a z-body mag or a flatline barrel, all guns shoot the same distance.

Most of the "flater trajectory" stuf is more due to the height of the guns.

Mags have low bodies so you sight down the barrel and the barrel is naturally held more horizontal to the ground.

Cockers and others have tall bodies and if the body and barrel are used to sight the barrel is held with an upward tilt.

Put the barrels on a horizontal surface to fire and ALL markers will shoot the same distance.

Except for the z-body or flatline barrel which will make the ball travel farther but gain you little to none in terms of USEFUL range. You can just annoy people more by hitting them with more bouncers.

[SlartyBartFast]

On another note, any and all wobble roll, or other movement of the ball before the shot is negated by the
64000 ft/s^2 acceleration of the paintball down the barrel.
Thats 1984 g's.

On another note once it leaves the barrel accuracy can't be improved because anything done by bolt or barrel is negated by vortex shedding and the inherrent randomness of paintball flight.

[Magluvr]

Slarty-
Could you explain this thing about the taller guns, would seem to have a flatter trajectory. I don't understand how a taller bodied gun could appear to have a flatter trajectory, merely because their taller.

I'm confused

Joni-

Could you please post a link of the pix, because I haven't seen that one?

Trains-

It kinda a habit, I did a little bit of computer programming (C++) a while back and haven't been able to break the habit yet.

[danheneise]

i still don't see what's so different with open/closed bolt, in each system, the bolt is fully forward and the ball is AT REST before air is shot out, the only way a ball is going to start rolling farther forward is if you have to big of a barrel, trust me, take your 'mag barrel, stick a paintball in the top hole, and with your finger, or better yet, with your mag's bolt push the ball in as if it is loading, now load it in only half way, as long as you have the right paint to barrel match that ball should be pretty snug in the barrel half way loaded in, if it's rolling then trust me you need a smaller bore barrel, as long as i'm shooting a proper barrel to paint match gun, i have rarely noticed any spin at all which would indicate very little or no rolling of the ball in the barrel after it is already loaded in

Dan Heneise

[spantol]

I believe this is the pic in question: