Could the cocker shoot farther?!

[cockermongol]

Originally posted by Mindflux

That's ALL in your head.

Don't give me that BS. I know the difference.

[Jack & Coke]

Could the cocker shoot farther?!

Yes... and flatter too!

Why?

Because you can cheat with a two-stage trigger system (auto-cocking).

All auto-cocking style guns can be set up so you can chrono at one speed (say 300 fps), and then shoot an "in game" hot-shot at 300+ fps.

That is why the shots "appear" to go flatter or shoot farther. It's because the fps is higher. Not because of any rolling spin of closed bolt magic.

The normal opperation of the auto-cocker system goes something like:

1. sear release
2. hammer hits valve
3. air propels ball
4. back block recocks hammer

However, if you setup your timing so that the gun recocks right at the moment the hammer hits the valve, you can make it so that the bolt starts to recock a split second before the valve closes after being struck by the hammer. This will give you a little blow back up the feed tube and give you a lower fps (not to mention less efficiency). This usually happens on a very very quick pull. So what you do next is dial up the main spring so the gun shoots faster and say on look... 300fps!

Now during the game, if you pull the trigger slower, you may get it where the bolt recocks after the full amount of air is expelled from the valve. Thus ALL of the air goes to shooting the ball (i.e. no blow back). This will give you more velocity. 300+fps :)

The trigger cadence, rythm, and speed will sometimes influence the velocity by affecting how much air goes to the ball. It all depends on your gun's automation timing.

You can set up the timing where there's really no difference on how you pull the trigger. Or you can set it up so that it shoots a little hotter by trigger control.

Sometimes this happens by sincere accident and people start saying, oh wow! Auto-cockers do shoot further and flatter!

Well duh... it's because you're shooting a little bit hotter than everyone else.

[Jt$uper$tar]

I own both a open bolt and a cocker. I find at 280 that the closed bolt is far more accurate even with the stock barrel, it also seems to have a flatter trajectory

[Jt$uper$tar]

lol but to be realistic i really think this is coming down to a cocker VS mag

[Mindflux]

Originally posted by cockermongol

Don't give me that BS. I know the difference.

At BEST one has less kick than the other, causing you not to angle the barrel up slightly when you fire it giving it a arc like appearance.

QUit being a dillwad.

[Jt$uper$tar]

lol i get like no kick, its only on the older cockers where a lot of kick is a problem

[Jack & Coke]

[Lohman446]

Interesting, the theory stands sound as theory... though I do not think it will test out as such.

Let me give an example, I have an early run ULE body and had a sticky detent - since fixed by spacing and a Kila magnetic detent. I was also shooting like a .690 CP barrel. My shots would curve, to the right in the air - not with a great consistency cause of the detent sticking sometimes worse than others.

SO yeh, a ball rolling downward could cause this, but I think if it was it would be soo pronounced as to be obvious.

I love the points made so far, but do note, if cockers (or any closed bolt or any style marker) did shoot farther, I think it would already have been scientifically and undebatably proven - and SP would have patented it.

[Jt$uper$tar]

but technicaly because of that spin wouldn't the cocker be more accurate, assuming that the mag adds a touch of spin to the ball

[cockermongol]

Originally posted by Mindflux




At BEST one has less kick than the other, causing you not to angle the barrel up slightly when you fire it giving it a arc like appearance.

QUit being a dillwad.

Actually, the BKO has less kick.

But the cocker still shoots farther. I know this from using both guns.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
However, if you setup your timing so that the gun recocks right at the moment the hammer hits the valve, you can make it so that the bolt starts to recock a split second before the valve closes after being struck by the hammer. This will give you a little blow back up the feed tube and give you a lower fps (not to mention less efficiency). This usually happens on a very very quick pull. So what you do next is dial up the main spring so the gun shoots faster and say on look... 300fps!

Now during the game, if you pull the trigger slower, you may get it where the bolt recocks after the full amount of air is expelled from the valve. Thus ALL of the air goes to shooting the ball (i.e. no blow back). This will give you more velocity. 300+fps :)

That's really outlandish. That's like saying "it'll shoot farther if you thumb the rod!" ... I think we're all trying to look at things under "normal use" situations. In either case, once you crank up the velocity to 300, then pull the trigger slower to get the spike of say... 320fps+, then you have issues of the ball curving from going to fast... not exactly a flatter shot anymore.

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
The trigger cadence, rythm, and speed will sometimes influence the velocity by affecting how much air goes to the ball. It all depends on your gun's automation timing.

With the marker properly setup, it actually won't make much of a difference at all. Evidence of this is with EBlades / Race frames. You can time how things work down to the millisecond. Being able to open the bolt 3ms after the sear is released is going to be a lot more accurate (and faster)than your finger is. Time it right and you won't have problems. Can it make a difference? Yeah.. Do I think that anyone would believe that's where the myth originated? No.

Originally posted by Jt$uper$tar
but technicaly because of that spin wouldn't the cocker be more accurate, assuming that the mag adds a touch of spin to the ball

Yes, but if there's only a touch, there won't be enough to make a difference

Originally posted by cockermongol

Actually, the BKO has less kick.

But the cocker still shoots farther. I know this from using both guns.

So.. when was it that you viced each and actually did an experiment with the two? Just playing with each and saying "The cocker shot farther" isn't really scientific.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Y-Grip


even if this were true, it's bullpucky for me cuz Warp Feeds eliminate all blowback effects on the paintball. I also use a powerfeed.

you obviously don't understand what is happening...

[bryceeden]

I have both a mag and a cocker, and just to see I set both up in vices, and tested at the exact same velocity(took over an hour to get it right) I used the same barrel, and the same paint. They went the same distance, and when tested for accuracy they had near identical groupings. The difference is in the user, the mag has a forward kick that ever so slightly lowers the barrel while the cocker has a backward kick that slightly raises it, that is why people percieve different results on the field, but these differences are very minimal unless you hold you gun VERY VERY loosly, at which point you have no accuracy. So literally no, the cocker doesn't shoot farther, but in the feild it has about 2-10 feet on the mag. I think the siting down the barrel theory makes alot of sence as well. I do prefer the mag over the cocker in the end.

[Brophog]

Open your mouth and let all the ignorance out, shall you.

Jack and Coke is talking about chrono cheating with a cocker......

[Jack & Coke]

Brophog is correct.

Y-Grip, chill out and try not to get so worked up. There's no need for internet chest puffing and flame-baiting keyboard warrior posts. Welcome to AO and try to remember, this is not PBN. :)