Do we really need tourneys?

[Glickman]

in response to the above Originally posted by gtrsi


like he said above, 1%? and its you thats being stereotypical. your assuming alot, and are making very strong stereotypical assumptions.

The idea of tourny players thinking their better or wahtnot is true/false on a person to person basis. you thinking that 99% of tourny players do, just shows everyone what kind of person you are. Cynicism is not a very good attribute there buddy. and if youve ever been to a tourny, youll find that its not just people who run their mouths and think their teh best, but its full of nice, friendly people who happen to like to play paintball at a more serious level, competition. so i dunno why youve apparently had so much bad experiance with tourny, or is it just that u havent gone to one? i dunno, but try going to a few, and youll find its alot better then most people think.

[raehl]

Heh...

You complain about things like "college players I know" or whatever, but then go about the "400 players at my field." The difference there is....? There are plenty of paintball fields out there who do mostly tournament players because they're geared towards them. The number of fields out there who have 400 players per day is pretty small.

- Chris

[tyrion2323]

Hrmm

This debate is stupid. The numbers are, at the moment, unknown. More than 1% plays tournament-style ball, that's for sure. I'm not sure what the number is.

I don't think that Chris was trying to enforce a hegemonic ideal for paintball. Honestly, he was just trying to shed some light on the situation.

getting back to the ORIGINAL QUESTION:

Are tournaments necessary? In my opinion, yes. They have done so much for this sport, it's phenomenal. Just as the NFL, NHL, MLB, etc have done amazing things for their respective sports, the NCPA, NPPL, NXL, etc have introduced and pushed many concepts which have become main stream.

I'm not sure why it is that woodsballers seem to "debunk" speedball and its achievements. In the past five years, markers have exploded. It used to be that, if you didn't own an Angel or a 'Cocker, you didn't fit into the "cool clique." Now, you can shoot Spyders and still kick arse. In my opinion, Speedball has done more for paintball than woodsball. It has taken it from a backwoods sport to a legit sport. From a "hobby" to something much more.

I love woodsball a lot, but I am not blind to what tournaments have done for paintball.

Jacob

[Glickman]

not to mention a different image then the generic, well you know kinda image of paintball


vs.

[GT]

Focus on the question and not the statistic although;

a pb mag a few months ago published a number around 8 mil that played pb that past year, although, every pb rag is so far removed from a peer review journal we are unsure how much error or variance is involved, although truth be told the sampling method produces nominal level data. Typically this type of data is formed from a questionnaire to the effect of "Do you play paintball and do you play in any tournaments yes/no" (un oh squid we might be getting in to some real stats here, try not to get lost in your humor)

so lets take, a probably erroneous number, about 8 mill and give it the 1% treatment: comes out to around 80k players annually play tourney pb. That is 80000
This discussion has nothing to do with the static and all to do with the importance of tourney play. This discussion was not intended to spark conversion in regards to the static, types of tourney play, or types of rec play rather whether we need tourneys or not.

Note: just thought I would adjust the focus of the post on the main issue and not the statistic.

[raehl]

80,000 is a low number, actually.

There are over 7,000 tournament players in the APPA database alone, and that's just people who have played NCPA, PSP, and NLPL events since those leagues started using the database.

As for the 8 million number, that comes from research done by the Sporting Goods Manufacturers ASsociation and the National Sporting Goods Association. They are two separate surveys given to thousands of households across the country. They're accurate to +/- 3% or so. Their numbers don't match exactly, partially because they're different surveys, and partially because one asks if you've played at least once in the past year, and one asks if you've played more than once in the past year, but they're both in the 8 million neighborhood - for 2002. In one survey, that was 24% higher than the 2001 number, so expect that when the new data comes out in April that we'll be up around 10 million.

One also asks if you've played 15 or more times in the past year, and determined that about 1.5 million people played paintball last year at least 15 times. If even 10% of those are tournament players (as opposed to frequent rec and scenario players), that's 150,000 tournament players. I'd guess the number is actually higher than 10%, but that's just a guess.


- Chris

[LudavicoSoldier]

Do we NEED tournaments? I would have to say, as a recballer, NO.

In the past few years the rift between rec and tourney players has been growing larger and larger (IMHO). Apparently you cant be KEWL, or XTREME, or 1337 if you play recball. And lord knows that if kids nowadays cant be as XTREME as possible, they just would rather not be at all. And whats with all this focus on WINNING? I don't know about you, but I could care less if I WIN while playing paintball. I play for the fun of it, and I believe that paintball was founded on the pricipal of HAVING FUN. Tourney ball seems (IMHO again) to suck all of the pure FUN out of the game.

While I do appreciate the advancements made by companies trumping tourny gear, I could easily forget electropneumatic guns ever existed, and go back to the woods with my 68 Carbine, and have a GREAT time. I actually think I would have MORE fun if tourney wannabe hosers dissapeared forever.

I think the real distinction between the two figurative "sides" is the following:
One one side you have the people who remember what paintball was like BEFORE tourney mania, and loved the game for everything it stood for (woods, bases, pump guns, actually being able to move without getting "laned"). These are the people who love the game.

Versus the tourney heads who would like (it seems) to wipe the old face of paintball away and build upon its wretched corpse an ESPN touted megamonster of a sport. Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the CAUSE of the rec vs. tourney rift IS THE TOURNEY PLAYERS!? I think rec ballers are alot more accomodating of different styles of play (hyperball, woods, fort, etc) while tourney "ballerz" seem to only want to play X/Speed/Airball and would like to burn everything else to the ground.

BAH I SAY! Remember where you came from! Have some respect for the recballer who goggs you, and quite whining like little b1tches when you get shot out!

10-4 over and out.

[GT]

Originally posted by GoatBoy
So what's the score, gtrsi? Anything in here that's made you reconsider anything?

when did this thread become about me? I simply wanted to know wether or not, AO, as a cosnumer felt it neccessary to pay for pros to play in tournies. Thus far the question has yet to be answered. IF less money was spent on advertisments and more in R&D well........ maybe everyother gun wouldnt be a stacked tube or spool valve.

What this thread has done is made me realize, once again, that I cannot be subtle with my posts. I have to explicitly state, in bold what my question for AO is.

[Oddball]

Do we need tournys, of course not. But I really don't think I would be playing pball today if I didn't play tourny ball. I played woodsball for about 3 years before ever playing in a tourny, and have been playing tournys for about 4 years now. The problems I have had with rec ball in the past is:

-often going to the field and not having enough ppl to get a good game going since feild are much bigger
-by far the most painfully hits I have taken have been during woods games due to ppl shooting way too hot (most of the time due to the players not knowing enough about their gear)

I just enjoy the "touny" style of play 100x better then just random, throw together walk-on games. I like to shoot ppl that are going to challenge me. And I only play walk-on games which are made up of (mostly) tourny players. Woodsball is ok, but frankly there is not much challenge to it due to the fact that most ppl that play woodsball just don't play paintball nearly enough or take it seriously enough to be very good. And how else am I going to find out how good my team or myself is if I don't play in a structered event?

Sorry for the spelling errors.

[lamby]

oddball,

Well said. I have to agree that there is not a "need" persey but a "market" for tourney players. And the advertisers are using the buzz that surrounds the tournament scene as a launching platform for new or better gear. Most suppliers that "sponsor" teams do so with free or reduced cost gear.. Not the HUGH dollars associated a fielding pro team. If we get sponsored by brass eagle/VL, get free eggs, and win at an national event, they got great advertising for the cost of 7-10 eggs (their cost, not wholesale cost.. prob about 10 dollars each)

That is why companys sponsor events and teams. It is part of the advertising budget and can be used for tax purposes. I am sure in each nitch there is target advertisers. If you go to a scenario event I am sure there will be some armalight (sp), and night vision stuff that you will NEVER see at an airball tournament.

[Glickman]

Originally posted by spleefstylez
Do we NEED tournaments? I would have to say, as a recballer, NO.

In the past few years the rift between rec and tourney players has been growing larger and larger (IMHO). Apparently you cant be KEWL, or XTREME, or 1337 if you play recball. And lord knows that if kids nowadays cant be as XTREME as possible, they just would rather not be at all. And whats with all this focus on WINNING? I don't know about you, but I could care less if I WIN while playing paintball. I play for the fun of it, and I believe that paintball was founded on the pricipal of HAVING FUN. Tourney ball seems (IMHO again) to suck all of the pure FUN out of the game.

Ok, first of all, this is like the THIRD FREAKING TIME SOMEONE HAS SAID SOMETHING LIKE THAT!! ok? Your attempt to show how tourny ballers are just rude, mean blah blah blah has only backfired, showing how, yourself are stereotypical, cynical person.
I would like to point this out to everyone. STOP MAKING STEREOTYPES! If i were to say that because i saw one group of new people playing woodsball, that i could say that all woodsballers are noobs, could i? yes. Would I be right? no....
Trying to make tourny ballers look bad is only a reflection of yourself. Dont call tourny ballers egotistical and rude untill youve met every single one. You shouldnt really make assumptions of a entire group from just media images, or just a few people youve seen/met.


Am i a tourny baller? yes. am i a recballer? yes. and i really dont like how you are being stereotypical to tourny players, expecially because youve given me the implication that you havent bothered checking out a real tourny. I might be wrong, but its apparent that your ignorace wouldnt be mature enough to actually goto a tourny and find out for yourself, instead of relying on "joe" your friend or wahtnot.

I would say the same thing to tourny players if they complained about recballers. but you know what?

ONLY ONCE have i seen a tourny player complain about recballers on a forum, and that was when what you would call a "generic tournyballer" complained about how they never moved from behind a bunker.

Isnt it kinda strange how if you were to go up to most tourny players with a problem, or question, they'll most likly be happy to answer it. From my experiances, tourny players are more than happy to help new people out, while ive seen numerous experiances where recballers put down new people for the sake of not knowing something or whatnot. im not saying it doesnt happen with tourny players too, but its less common from what ive seen.

So as ive said earlier on this forum, stop being a stereotypical idiot.
Your only making a name for yourself.....

[Tyger]

Originally posted by Glickman

I would like to point this out to everyone. STOP MAKING STEREOTYPES! If i were to say that because i saw one group of new people playing woodsball, that i could say that all woodsballers are noobs, could i? yes. Would I be right? no....
Trying to make tourny ballers look bad is only a reflection of yourself. Dont call tourny ballers egotistical and rude untill youve met every single one. You shouldnt really make assumptions of a entire group from just media images, or just a few people youve seen/met.

I am not defending the opinion, just explaining it.

The other weekend I went to play at a Chicago field that has a fairly strong tournament player presence (Badlandz). For the most part they stayed amongst themselves, didn't interact with the guys in camo much, and talked loud about how "BS" all this woods play was.

When they did play in the woods, they had what I wold call a bad attitude. In one case a guy in a red jersey had shot a bunch of paint at me, and I returned the favor. I felt an impact on my mask, and immediately he began to scream "You're shot! I shot you in the face you ******* ************! You're dead! You *******!" (Edited by Tyger, btw...)

My reply? "Ok bud. I'm out." I was putting my hand up anyhow as he was going off on me. I guess I had hit him too because he was leaving at the same time, *****ing and moaning the whole way off the field that he shot me and... Well I'm not sure WHY he was *****ing and moaning to be honest. I called myself out and stopped shooting when I felt the impact on the mask. And as I was leaving he was arguing with a referee about my behavior. And on my way past I did tell him "Dude? Decaf."

Now I see this repeated a lot. The typical tournament players stay amongst themselves, they talk amongst themselves, and they wold prefer to have nothing to do with the "dirty woodsball players". If approached, they'll ignore the rec guy. In fact, at Badlandz, they had enough people for walk on to get two groups. One for woods, one for the Hyperball. A lot of the jersey players went to Hyperball, and the camo guys went for woods. And that's ok, given a choice you can do what you want.

This isn't to say that you never see GOOD attitudes among tournament players. I've approached teams like AGD's with probelms and they'll take a few moments to help. Cappo is EXTREMELY cool and approachable. To dig up a name, Fred Schultz was probaby the coolest tournament player ever. I can think of a lot more tournament teams that are more embassadors than jerks.

But then I recall cleaning up paint splats around the Skydome this year with my team, and seeing even more paintball splats in the hotel hallways, plus some jerk pulling the fire alarm at 12:15 AM. If you're a tournament player, and you're hyping yourself as the best paintball has to offer, you of all people hold not be pulling this crud. Same thing goes to rec-ball players, except that rec ballers aren't as high profile. A sign being shot up in the middle of nowhere isn't seen as many times as splats on the walls of the Skydome.

Some understand this, some don't. That's my point. When tournament players do dumb things, everyone sees it.

-Tyger

[LudavicoSoldier]

I think the point I was trying to make is that I personally am not a big fan of the tourney scene, or the tourney attitude. I agree with Tyger in that when tourney players act poorly, you are more likely to see it, and therefore have an opinion about it, bad or good. I am not saying that all tourney ballers have poor attitudes, but the are a good number of them that do, and again, you see it more since tourney ballers insist on being in the spotlight, for better or worse. I am not trying to generalize all tourney players, but from what I have seen, both locally and online, I NEVER want to be part of the new tourney scene. Just my opinion...take it as you will...

Additionally, I think it is very hard to present an opinon from either side without being accused of generalizing, or making stereotypes. I wish I had good opinions of tourney ball, but I don't. I'm glad that some of you dont like it. Perhaps it will encourage you to have a talk with your poorly behaving tourney brethren and encourage them not to act like tempermental teenagers. Hows that for a stereotype?

Extra additionally. Here is what I really dislike about the tourney scene, if you MUST know. Where has the code-of-honor system that paintball was originally based on gone? Since when did we as paintballers need a ref to tell us when we have been shot to the point of being out? Personally, I don't need a ref to have me under a microscope in order for me to call myself out. You get hit once, check and see if it broke, STOP SHOOTING, if you cant see, call the ref. I can't stand seeing people get hit several times, and not even pause thier trigger finger. The ref is there to oversee your own decisions, not make them for you.

[Glickman]

Take the idea of paintball being only for gun fanatics, alot of people believe it. is it true? well thats basically what your saying when you talk about tourny ball.

Perhaps it will encourage you to have a talk with your poorly behaving tourney brethren and encourage them not to act like tempermental teenagers. Hows that for a stereotype?

How about this, have ever reffed games? have you ever considered the fact that more recballers dont call themselves out than tournyballers? hmm? Why not go down to a field, and watch the difference between the number of tourny players, and recballers that dont call themselves out... well, i have reffed, and ive seen about 3 of every person that is pushed of the field by a ref for not calling himself out was a recballer. Most of these dishonest people were middle aged men, 30-35


You talk about tempermental teenagers and dishonorable tournyballers. Sure you can have your own opinion, but how can you defend the idea that you refuse to find out for yourself hm? you cant, thats the point.

I rest my case

[UltimatePaintballer]

Originally posted by gtrsi


Good Post Tyger! You are on my short list of PB dudes I need to meet and play with someday.

jb-gT

well, i can say i have had a chance to play with him, and stand next to him as he taped me getting a hopper hit on the field. cool guy and knows alot, HERE HERE FOR TYGER!