WAY AROUND THE SP PROB...of course

[dwab3000]

hey i am at least trying here nt2004...if sp gets their way they will be the only company....
btw i am not trying to save em myself.first of all thats not a good idea and it was to show tom kaye an idea how he could keep up on the production of x/e mags instead of canceling em..
if tom kaye can go through this way then it will help other companies save themselves...ok
and i will edit this saturday...im truly posting between classes...not enught true time

[Mag Master 04]

hey dude, i like the fact that you are serious about this subject. there are a billion threads about this but im not seeing much action. a whole lot of talk but no action, im sure there are things stopping that action the I as well as everyone else is looking for. i believe that SP can be stopped and its just as simple as the paintball world coming together and saying no to SP products. let them do there worst. we have to stand tall and refuse to buy there things, they are not immortal, but they will do there worst. we just have to weather the storm and stand up for the soon to be dying paintball advancement. i know that the majority of you say no to SP products but majority is not enough. if we want SP to stop then we need to unite and thats the bottom line. im sure its been said before but its the truth, if my post sounds gay dont read it

[Head knight of Ni]

let it flow

People, people, people I believe the best way to fight smart parts is to let human nature take its course. with this whole patent incedent the only thing smart parts is doing is giving itself a black eye in the mind of the intelligent consumer.

Of course we're upset because we think that we should blame SP for the death of the X-Mag. One of the over looked aspects of this whole issue is how enforcing the patent is an underhanded tactic and the only reason that I pesonally dislike SP for it is they Patented it but they waited until the market for electronic markers was booming.

I also find it odd that this issue came about at or around the same time that a company *cough AGhh uh D *cough creates a part that can give consumers a trigger pull equivalent to most electronic guns but keep it a pure mech' gun. As well as the fact that this company was supposedly approached and folded thier fairly popular electronic line of markers.

My thoughts and I hope you liked my insight and reply to it.

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

Originally posted by dwab3000
...if sp gets their way they will be the only company....

First of all, NPS, Dye and ICD have alrady signed agreements with SP, so we will defiantly have matrices, bushmasters, and intimidators as well as impulses and shockers.

The reason Tom stopped production of the Emag has nothing to do with SP. He felt that the technology was dated and it was time for a change. The reason for them stopping production of the xmag has something to do with AGDE.

As far as SP suing all the companies, welcome to the buisness world! It doesn't matter what YOU think is right, or what really is right, it all boils down to, SP owns the patent and they are enforcing it. Appearently, if large companies like NPS and Dye signed agreements with them, they have some solid grounds for their patent.

[Dryden]

The previous two posts (by Head knight of Ni and RT pRo AuToMaG) are two of the more reasoned ones I've read recently.

Unless you've got money and lawyers (which are mutually exclusive) you're really out of luck. You can either go to court to have the patent invalidated, or you can go to the US Patent and Trademark Office and request a review, and pray to God SP doesn't hit you with a suit before you're out the door.

The other option, a grassroots boycott, isn't going to work either, unless everyone gives up their shiney electros and Freak barrels altogether. Since SP will license electros, they're getting a cut whether you buy it from Dye, ICD, or whoever.

Viva la ULT! Viva la Level 10! *chuff chuff*

[PaintballSmurf13]

@ the whole thing ...i mean..you can't beat the system...it's ALL money..money makes the world go round..money wins...nothin else..so your out of luck. Just look at Dye, they bought the Matrix and you can't even upgrade it without totally voiding the warranty and such, except for the Smokin mod. There will always be bullies in the industry, in every industry.
-Ryan F.

and on the bright side...if electros die out because of the whole thing..we all know where to get the fastest mech guns around

[MidnightRider]

I was thinking the same thing......

Originally posted by PaintballSmurf13


and on the bright side...if electros die out because of the whole thing..we all know where to get the fastest mech guns around

If all the electros are pushed out of the market 'cept SP's... the tournaments just go all mech and SP's products are tough-out-of-luck.

Now if only the promoters and such get on this bandwagon.

Peace

MR

[DeeEight]

Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG

As far as SP suing all the companies, welcome to the buisness world! It doesn't matter what YOU think is right, or what really is right, it all boils down to, SP owns the patent and they are enforcing it. Appearently, if large companies like NPS and Dye signed agreements with them, they have some solid grounds for their patent.

And if they fail to sue tippmann, BE, Kingman, WDP, WGP, PMI and other companies with E-guns and MORE MONEY THAN SP does for lawyers in a TIMELY manner, then the patent is unenforced and thus void.

They've yet to win in court, they have no precedant to force those rich companies to sign a license agreement, and they're running out of small companies to go after.

Once the patent is unenforced and voided, AKA, AGD and everybody else who took the ceasing production route, will restart production. Simple as that.

I seem to recall you HAVE to enforce patents within a year of issue for them to be valid. You can't just sit on the patent and wait until dozens of companies are infringing on it to start suing them.

[dmocratic]

Re: WAY AROUND THE SP PROB...of course

Originally posted by dwab3000
Look i know sp is going to kill all electros soon...and only have their own... now this is a way around all sp problems...ok for the x-mag / e-mag we give them away...but we give them away after someone has donated the recommended price...Copyright laws only gets you if you sell their design...it makes complete sense...[...]

No, it's nonsense. For one thing, copyright law applies regardless of whether you sell the copyrighted material or give it away, and for another, the issue with SP and electros is patent law, not copyright law, and patent law is different. There is no "fair use" under patent law.

IANAL, but I have 21 US patents to my name.

[dmocratic]

Originally posted by DeeEight


And if they fail to sue tippmann, BE, Kingman, WDP, WGP, PMI and other companies with E-guns and MORE MONEY THAN SP does for lawyers in a TIMELY manner, then the patent is unenforced and thus void.

Nope. A patent holder can sue whoever, whenever, over the life of the patent. And most patents are "enforced" by confidential licensing agreements, not by lawsuits. The fact that patent holder isn't suing an apparant infringer may be evidence that such an agreement exists, or may simply mean that the patent holder doesn't think it's worth the expense to enforce the patent against that one infringer. There is no requirement that all infringing parties must be sued.

I seem to recall you HAVE to enforce patents within a year of issue for them to be valid. You can't just sit on the patent and wait until dozens of companies are infringing on it to start suing them.

Nope. You have one year from the time you publish the idea, or start selling the idea, until you have to file at the USPTO. But you can sue whenever, and in fact, many succesful patent lawsuits have indeed been initiated many years after the patent was issued.

[swanster]

it was nohing to do with AGDE, John Sosta said that he would keep on making x-mags if they were wanted. I t is in another post on AO

[Lee]

imo: agd usa is not making e markers any longer so that they DO NOT GET approached by sp. agd is being pro active and waiting for the dust to settle.

sp is going after smaller companies first since they are the path of least resistance and revenue can be generated for sp through a licensing agreement or, in the case of aka, competition can be removed there by potentially boosting sales of sp markers by removing a choice from the consumer.
one less brand on sale, one more chance for sp to make a sale. and rememebr, it doesn't have to be an sp marker thats sold, it could be any marker manufactured and sold under sp license.

in buisness, it's all about volume of sales. enforcing a patent and having a licensing agreement with companies that produce items based on the patent you own causes an increase in volume without you having to do anything much other than pay a lawyer. after the outlay of cash to the lawyer, everything else is gravy. no employess to pay, no machinery to maintain or keep updated, no marketing costs, no inventory storage costs, no insurance plans/retirement /taxes (roughly 30% of revenue goes to taxes or so i have heard-could be wrong though). total hands off buisness venture except to endorse the checks.

agd usa does not have the volume of sales on e markers to make it practical to pay a royalty. a royalty would either have to be absorbed by the company (marker cost remains the same and agd eats royalty out of profit margin) or the royalty gets passed along to consumers (most likely scenario...most buisnesses would do this).

now, try to think like mr. kaye. what would you do?
bear in mind that he produces more than just paintball markers and parts.

i don't like what sp is doing, but it's hella smart and is not going to go away with as much potential gain to sp as i have outlined above.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Once BE, Kingman, PMI beats them, everyone else can go back to court with SP and use their arguments. So if they win(which they will) all the other companies, if they want, can go back to court and fight SP. And as for higher prices, your wrong. Look at bushys. They are the same price as they were before all of this if not lower. But then again the Freestyle may have originally been 300 or so cheaper. And this is going to cause innovation, not destroy it all. Look at what TK is doing, well think about what we know he is doing. From what we know he is developing a new radically designed gun that will be the best ever and will not be infriging on any patent.

[chairman_mao]

As the Head Knight of Ni said let nature take it's course. I believe (not sure though) that patents expire after seven years. I know this is true on drug patents but I'm not sure how it translates to other things. If I am correct then all the companies wh stopped production will be able to pick back up again in 2011. Who knows the technology of paintball may now be drasticly altered. Maybe AKA or AGD will unveil somehting, that makes all of SP's fancy electros obselete, and patent it.

All these post full of schemes and conjecture about what we can do to stop SP or how we need the "big" companies to stand up to Sp are getting kinda old. What's done is done and our little cult huddled away in a corner of the internet is not going to change the past. I look foward to the radical new designs that this flimsy patent enforcement will bring about and I say

VIVA LA MECH

[Dryden]

Originally posted by chairman_mao
I believe (not sure though) that patents expire after seven years.

Depends on the type of patent and when it was applied for. If memory serves, patents prior to the American Inventors Protection Act of 1999 were termed for either 14 or 17 years based on the nature of the patent. Patents after the AIPA are 20 years from the date of filing.

I look foward to the radical new designs that this flimsy patent enforcement will bring about

Amen. God forbid a company should actually make something innovative to get around a patent. The problem of course, as TK has expressed before, is not whether or not we all like what's next from AGD, but rather if it's available in colors and has Dye engraved on it somewhere.