Drop Forward: Whats the Problem?

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  • rx2
    DBAF
    • Mar 2002
    • 496

    #16
    I will not say drops don't work. But, ergonomically speaking, on a standard frame, large drops are a mess. They almost always add extra strain. This is not to say that some cannot compensate, or that in certains setups they don't work (90 degree, etc.). Certain people can make due with less than ideal situations, and do so quite well. Some people can defy convention with impossibly stellar results, at times. Just look at Babe Ruth. The name synonymous with baseball looked like a train wreck compared to most of today's pharmecuetically enhanced players, and even many of his contemporaries. Yet, with his sometimes sub-optimal mechanics, and shabby physique, he performed feats that many can never dream of matching. Most players who are as stiff and obese as Ruth was are typically poor players, but note the caveats. Furthermore, one might speculate that he could have been even more, had he kept in shape, and refined his natural style futher. Here, note speculation - there is no proof. However, there is plenty of evidence that certain routines, styles, and forms will yeild the best results from the highest percentage of people. Sometimes they even go against INITIAL personal preference.

    Anyhow, it seems that a lot of people become used to bad haibts and sub-optimal styles (especially if they see a pro do it, and force themselves to adopt it). And, while some people do actually do better with these methods, most don't. They can get by, but there usually comes a time when they plateau prematurely. Said player, having taken some time to practice without a drop, may very well find that his playing will improve drastically. It may feel awkward, it may even feel wrong. But, personal preference isn't always "right." Again, to protect myself, I am not saying this is always the case. Read on.

    Another example, with which I am quite familiar as a musician, is playing technique, and posture, particularly with the guitar, where it is quite debated. Certain players do quite well with terrible posture, and technique. One might say that if it works for them, it isn't terrible. Well, perhaps, but as a whole, the average player would be doing themselves a disservice by adopting these techniques. They put undue strain on joints, and tendons, and utilize muscles that most people will never be able to condition properly, and which are far less efficient then others. In fact, while some people finds these techniques to feel fine, even good, at first, they can often cause serious medical problems over the long run.

    Here is a typical scenario (one that I see too often) - you have a kid who thinks he is doing the right thing by picking up a certain technique that some speed-picker was using, or becuase it felt easier because it used shortcuts, and after time he learns to use it quite well. In fact, he finds that more standard techniques seem awkward (due to his conditioning to the other technique). However, he finds that in the long run, he has to practice a little harder, and seems to see less results. He hits the proverbial brick wall, and hits it hard. So, you suggest to him a more conventional technique. He tries, and it takes a while to pick up. In fact, he thinks he progressing even slower. Actually, he may be, as some of the "bad" techniques utilize shortcuts that get you to a certain point quickly, but which lack the fundamentals to take you all the way. Anyhow, later you play a tape of him from before, and after, and boom, it hits him. His playing before was stiff, mechanical, and just plain average, whereas now, he is playing not only well, but with feel, and adaptability. Often, he find he is playing also with more speed, and less fatigue. This is not a hypothetical - it is something real. Sometimes, SOMETIMES, you will find a someone who does better with the odd technique, and for some reason compensates enough that he doesn't get the muscle injuries.

    The point of all of this is that sometimes personal preference IS wrong, because sometimes it has been developed for the wrong reasons. Sometimes things that feel better at first are actually sub-optimal (such as with the shortcut picking techniques). Sometimes a little extra work goes a long way.

    Again, I don't want to take sides. I am sure there are plenty of people who do better with a drop. But, there are also many of you seem to refuse the possiblity that perhaps you got into a bad habit, and perhaps, as well as you do with a drop, you may actaully do better without one. Of course, there are some people I know who refuse to change, simply because they are too embarassed to admit that they were incorrect. In any case, if you win with a drop, then keep using it. But, do not refuse that it may be possible that you could do better without. I can not enumerate the times that I have done someting one way, only to switch later and find that I was so much better off for having done so.
    Last edited by rx2; 05-25-2004, 10:04 PM.
    "My Jell-O is dying in the audience..."
    Merrill Howard Kalin

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    • GoatBoy
      Junior Mint
      • Jun 2003
      • 1399

      #17
      So, what, nobody here think's it might have been sort of a historical thing?
      "Accuracy by aiming."


      Definitely not on the A-Team.

      Comment

      • Destructo6
        Registered User
        • Apr 2004
        • 549

        #18
        Uni-mounts seem to be nothing more than a modern rendition of the duck bill ASA. They make the entire package overly long.

        Unlike a rifle, a paintgun has no recoil to speak of, has no sights to align, and therefore, has no need of 3 points of contact with the shooter.

        It seems to me that the anti-drop sentiment is just another paintball fad, like splash anodizing.
        God gave you a soul.
        Your parents, a body.
        Your country, a rifle.

        Keep all of them clean.

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        • Enemy
          aKa PROZAC
          • Aug 2003
          • 1245

          #19
          thank you destructo that was so good im quoting into the other anti drop forums..in my opinion no drop is long and uncomfortable..if your not confortable with something then you will be skechty and awkwarde to say the least can you over come that yes.. but as for drops robbing me of my own abilities i will be making vids to disprove/maybe even prove this point so stay tuned!!!
          VV04962 yeah thats my Pewter CnC X-mag

          Looking for a milled 04 featherlight viking!!!

          my feedback!!!http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...84#post1584884

          Comment

          • REDRT
            Mags, Y use anything else
            • Apr 2004
            • 1854

            #20
            Well, I've been playing with a remote line for many years and loved it. When I had the chance to buy a flatline with its small drop it was way different at first, but I really like it. No performance loss with the switch. I however had the chance to use a micro e-mag (awesome gun) and it had a big drop to allow for the huge 114. That hindard me performance wise, but not the rest of the team. In fact my brother liked it so much he ordered a rt pro ule custom yesterday with plans on a drop. I'd stick to what works for you and what you like.

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            • SpecialBlend2786
              Registered User
              • Jun 2003
              • 4023

              #21
              I went from a duckbill to a large drop to a rail mount to a small shocktech drop, and that's where I'm staying for now. There is NO extra strain on my wrist when using a small drop, because of the regulator on the tank. My wrist is not curving around the tank like it would with a larger drop. However the tank is moved forward, and this balances my RT-ULE perfectly on the spot right in front of the field strip screw but behind the trigger frame. I find that this has been the ideal setup for me.

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              • Bolter
                Hardcore casual
                • May 2003
                • 1223

                #22
                if you use a drop, it pushes your bottle forward right? So when you grip the grip, your wrist has to go around the bottle yes? And you start to look like a f@g no? Especially with it in your face agreed?

                cool, glad we cleared that up. Honestly I used a drop for years and poo-pooed rails as a fad until I played with one and OMG it felt soooo comfy!! Its like getting your first car, and its a $1000 Ford midgit (I made that up) and you think its the best, fastest thing out there. Then when you pluck up the courage you try your buddys Mercedes and well schwiiiiing that thing is comfy. Then you jump in the ford and it just don't cut it.

                Try a rail, they are $10.
                Bolter
                Storm Uk

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                • DK1
                  Registered User
                  • Oct 2001
                  • 384

                  #23
                  Originally posted by rx2
                  A great deal...

                  Unfortunatly, your entire theory is based on one, wrong, assumption. And that is, that there is somehow a definitive "correct" posture. There isn't. This isn't music (and btw, I play bass, guitar, and saxaphone, so I understand where you are coming from), there is no large body of scientific study (or even non-scientific study) to draw those conclusions from. If you look closely at those photos, you'll notice something... those players aren't nearly as bent up as people make them out to be. A couple of them actually have very straight wrists. Straighter than competition shooting of rifles actually... Ever notice how you shoot a rifle? You put your elbow out, and bend your wrist back against itself. That's not a very comfortable looking position, but it is the one that yeilds the best accuracy. SO, now I can say, the straightest posture isn't necessarily the best one. Now, we aren't shooting rifles, no, but that's not exactly the point. I for one, find that having a slight bend in my wrist doesn't affect my shot at all, nor my speed.

                  Drop/no-drop comes down to preference, and confidence. What you like, and what you feel makes you better is a larger factor than which you actually pick.

                  So, I, for one, frankly do not care what you use. Use what you like...

                  DK1

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                  • Vanced
                    I'm Old Skool, Not My Game
                    • Sep 2002
                    • 489

                    #24
                    Originally posted by DK1
                    So, I, for one, frankly do not care what you use. Use what you like...
                    Exactally...

                    Just another opinion in paintball ... Both have their advantages and disadvantages that vary from player to player... But if you are looking for MY SOLE OPINION ...

                    I have used Rail/No Drop , Big Long Drop, and smaller to mid size drops ...Still own all three, and to be honest my preferce vary's slightly to wich tank size and reg combination I am using... to get a proper balance for me...
                    But with after using them all I typically find myself going with a smaller drop... not sending the tank too far forward...but far enough to get the proper balance I like for the length and weight of the typical stainless 2 piece barrel kit I am using... and place the tank a little lower from the bottom of the frame that the diameter of the tank is putting added pressure agaisnt my wrist and fore arm pushing it into more of a uncomfortable position unless I have my arm and hand wraped out and around the tank to the fame... being a taller guy with long arms I got a lot of elbow that I need to keep tucked in and the drop helps me do it...

                    Just another worthless virtual 2 cents for you...

                    AGD Pride C&C X-Mag #327
                    My MicroMag 2000 ReTro
                    Laptop/Notebook For Sale or Trade
                    AGD Relic: Centennial Minimag #900

                    Comment

                    • No sKiLLz
                      NYX #16
                      • Apr 2003
                      • 930

                      #25
                      I can't even think of how drops came into existence in the first place.

                      As stated, a drop forces your wrist into a very unwalkable position as you have to curve your wrist around the tank and then tweak it forward to put your fingers in a horizontal position, vs. having a straight wrist (no strain of ligaments) against the tank regulator which gives you a smaller profile coming out to take a shot.

                      Drops make you square your shoulders to the target. I love it when I play people with big drops. I can see their shoulder and gun before they have line of sight and they overly expose themselves. Personally, I am all for drops if other people want to use them.

                      Drops make you a great opponent. You shoot slower and make a bigger target.
                      Miscue - *Banned for: Flaming, disruptive behavior, and overall jackassery* -Brian

                      cphilip - ...And again I am not allowing anyone to use the "well everyone else does it and gets away with it" excuse. Get used to it. Life aint always fair and this ain't no democracy.

                      Check out AO mods at their finest

                      Comment

                      • GoatBoy
                        Junior Mint
                        • Jun 2003
                        • 1399

                        #26
                        Originally posted by No sKiLLz
                        I can't even think of how drops came into existence in the first place.

                        As stated, a drop forces your wrist into a very unwalkable position as you have to curve your wrist around the tank and then tweak it forward to put your fingers in a horizontal position, vs. having a straight wrist (no strain of ligaments) against the tank regulator which gives you a smaller profile coming out to take a shot.

                        Drops make you square your shoulders to the target. I love it when I play people with big drops. I can see their shoulder and gun before they have line of sight and they overly expose themselves. Personally, I am all for drops if other people want to use them.

                        Drops make you a great opponent. You shoot slower and make a bigger target.

                        Ahem... How long have you been playing?

                        Paintball Talk is the main forum for Automags.org. Here is where we talk about the sport of paintball in general and make announcements relating to the forum and website.
                        Last edited by GoatBoy; 05-26-2004, 11:55 AM. Reason: fun with URL's?
                        "Accuracy by aiming."


                        Definitely not on the A-Team.

                        Comment

                        • RoadDawg
                          Degeneration X is back
                          • May 2001
                          • 4023

                          #27
                          Originally posted by GoatBoy
                          Ahem... How long have you been playing?

                          http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...57#post1392057
                          He's been playing for a good while now. IF that's how he feels it is how he feels. I'm pro drop as I like how it feels when I put it to my arm.
                          Sorry, I'm old

                          Comment

                          • No sKiLLz
                            NYX #16
                            • Apr 2003
                            • 930

                            #28
                            Originally posted by RoadDawg
                            He's been playing for a good while now. IF that's how he feels it is how he feels. I'm pro drop as I like how it feels when I put it to my arm.
                            You have a warp. That's different.
                            Miscue - *Banned for: Flaming, disruptive behavior, and overall jackassery* -Brian

                            cphilip - ...And again I am not allowing anyone to use the "well everyone else does it and gets away with it" excuse. Get used to it. Life aint always fair and this ain't no democracy.

                            Check out AO mods at their finest

                            Comment

                            • RoadDawg
                              Degeneration X is back
                              • May 2001
                              • 4023

                              #29
                              There are always exceptions. Overall the drop has created a small and compact setup. Much to the misery of opponents. Now if I could build the skill with my low compact profile then that statement would be true.
                              Sorry, I'm old

                              Comment

                              • GoatBoy
                                Junior Mint
                                • Jun 2003
                                • 1399

                                #30
                                Originally posted by RoadDawg
                                He's been playing for a good while now. IF that's how he feels it is how he feels. I'm pro drop as I like how it feels when I put it to my arm.
                                I was referring to the question of how drops came into existence in the first place.
                                "Accuracy by aiming."


                                Definitely not on the A-Team.

                                Comment

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