Bullet-Shaped Paintballs

[rx2]

Certainly it would be a good idea if fiscally feasible. I would pay that much for them, easily, as I somtimes pay 2 dollars and up for handgun rounds. The problem is, spherical paintballs are dirt cheap as they are extremely easy to make, and the machines to do so are already in place, and have been so for years. In order to develop these ballistic paintballs, you would need a decent sized production facility with lots of proprietary equipment. That takes a lot of money for R&D, and a lot more to produce the machines themselves. Granted, they wouldn't need to start from scratch, per se, but I suspect that early on, it would cost MUCH more than 10 or 15 dollars. Hell, I remember when 100 rounds or spherical paint cost nearly that much. And, like I said, they are much easier to produce. Furthermore, if you used proprietary designs, you (the buyer) would have to deal with the fact that there is no competition around to drive down prices, unless the company decided to part with their intellectual property and rights, which would be another gamble. In all, it would take a huge demand for anyone to even attempt this. I just don't think a company could pull this off, right now, and still charge what people are willing to pay. I would like to see something like this, personally, but I just cannot forsee such a thing any time soon. Too much cost and risk.

[GoatBoy]

Damn man, so many naysayers in here. You know, they probably said the same things about paintball before they figured everything out.

I like the idea. We're all so used to more or less a level playing field (barring guns that are... uhm, out of spec and... well, playing fields that literally aren't level) that this would really change things up. Pumps pretty much are a rarity in play because there isn't much advantage to using them; if they could either be more accurate, or as I suggested a long time ago, allow them to chrono at slightly higher speeds, they'd have a place again.

The machinery that makes our paintballs didn't come... from paintball. They came from the pharmaceutical industry. Trying to kill the idea based on what you think our technology, either today or in the near future, can bear seems shortsighted. It's hard to believe that all of you who benefit from numerous advances in technology, not just paintball but in so many facets of your lives, can't be bothered to give the idea a chance.

They already make gelatin capsules. They're just not the right size yet. In fact I was just looking online at the process... gee, seems shockingly familiar. I wonder if gelatin caplet manufacturers had as much difficulty discussing the topic when they started their process.

"OMGLOLZ THAT WILL BE SO EXPENSIVE! NOBODY WILL PAY 4 DAT WEN THEY CAN JUST EAT THE MEDICIN THEMSELFS!!"


Another thing I was thinking of though... I think everyone's still thinking .68 caliber. I would say stick with the same paintball weight, but reduce the bore size for the rounds. Make the tip weakened, and you have a significantly different beast.

Yes yes, I know, lots of things have to change; bolts, barrels, chambers... I'd seriously consider it though.


I'm not particularly a fan of scenario ball, but I have to say, if anyone would be willing to accept an idea like this, I think they would be the ones.

[Deathshadow9k]

yeah swat team training uses FN303's but they call em sim shots, they work really well but the only problem is they usually shoot em at abotu 500 fps.....and yes they wear lots of body armor

[Jaremy Rykker]

Damn man, so many naysayers in here. You know, they probably said the same things about paintball before they figured everything out.

I like the idea. We're all so used to more or less a level playing field (barring guns that are... uhm, out of spec and... well, playing fields that literally aren't level) that this would really change things up. Pumps pretty much are a rarity in play because there isn't much advantage to using them; if they could either be more accurate, or as I suggested a long time ago, allow them to chrono at slightly higher speeds, they'd have a place again.

The machinery that makes our paintballs didn't come... from paintball. They came from the pharmaceutical industry. Trying to kill the idea based on what you think our technology, either today or in the near future, can bear seems shortsighted. It's hard to believe that all of you who benefit from numerous advances in technology, not just paintball but in so many facets of your lives, can't be bothered to give the idea a chance.

They already make gelatin capsules. They're just not the right size yet. In fact I was just looking online at the process... gee, seems shockingly familiar. I wonder if gelatin caplet manufacturers had as much difficulty discussing the topic when they started their process.

"OMGLOLZ THAT WILL BE SO EXPENSIVE! NOBODY WILL PAY 4 DAT WEN THEY CAN JUST EAT THE MEDICIN THEMSELFS!!"


Another thing I was thinking of though... I think everyone's still thinking .68 caliber. I would say stick with the same paintball weight, but reduce the bore size for the rounds. Make the tip weakened, and you have a significantly different beast.

Yes yes, I know, lots of things have to change; bolts, barrels, chambers... I'd seriously consider it though.


I'm not particularly a fan of scenario ball, but I have to say, if anyone would be willing to accept an idea like this, I think they would be the ones.

I realized that the round would probably have to be substantially redesigned. But, note that not only were the gelatin capsules in medicine a leap of faith, but they aren't round either.

Certainly, a marker would need to be designed to work with these bullet shaped rounds. But, I doubt that is beyond the limits of a major company that is trying to get into scenario paintball. The barrel bore and such would almost certainly have to be smaller, and if you are looking for a loader, either a clip shaped gravity loader (which is limited in size unless you make it wide at top), or create a force-feed system that looks similiar to a SAW's magazine. The whole idea of a marker would be redesigned for these rounds, but I feel it would revolutionize paintball and make Smart Parts cry because they hadn't patented something somebody would use.

[bubbleman441]

Guidelines have been set that limit the weight of a paintball for sporting purposes, so as to limit risks to players, and limit insurance costs. Also, imparting more of a parabolic shape to a paintball results in a shell that is more rigid, and less prone to breaking. In fact, I can't remember who it was, but there were some oval paintballs released in the early to mid ninetees. They were a bit harder, and hurt more than round paint. Of course, you could change the shell such that it has weak points designed to break. In any case, any of these changes would result in a much higher price. This is OK for police and military, as they are using them in special instances, such as crowd control, and they don't typically need high volumes, but I don't think that the average person would want the greatly higher prices, and more rigidity.

Also, as far as I have ever heard, simunitions actually are much more painful than paintballs, and require the use of much protection. But, they are not referring to simunitions anyways, but special paint designed for training and crown control that is not fired from standard firearms, and does not use s brass casing. These ARE heavier, and DO have fins.

My dad has been shot by both paintballs and simunition and he said paintballs hurt more because they're heavier. Also, the picture that Sniper king posted is the exact stuff my dad uses for training (he is a firearms instructor.) As you can see in the pic, there is a BRASS casing filled with gun powder which propells the plastic shell filled with paint which is fired by their standard side-arms with a special simunition barrel.

[Jaremy Rykker]

I apologize for disagreeing with you, but those FN303 rounds are made by AGD, and weigh 8.5 grams as compared to 3.2 grams for paintballs. The entire point of their increased weight and shot velocity is to induce trauma in whatever they hit so as to stop them. For one, they are shot at a much higher velocity, and secondly they are a lot heavier. What I am saying is that your dad is not using the FN303 or its rounds.

Your injury from an FN303 round will be much worse than that of a paintball from point-blank, and for a number of reasons (insurance and pain), the FN303 rounds as currently made will never be used for paintball. However, the design is effective, and if AGD were to work on it, they could perhaps make a pump gun with either a banana clip above the gun as a gravity feed (10-20 rounds) or if they were to make a semi-automatic, to try to use a box similiar to that used on the SAW.

Understand that the rounds would have to be significantly retooled and redesigned as would the marker that shoots them.

[xXHavokXx]

ok here is the problems that I see:

1. You have to do propritary guns due to the fact the shape of the ball wont fit down a std. neck
2. You've seen how the wind effects the heavier spherical paintball, this will be worse
3. Without a regand expansion chamber, the inconstant expansion of Co2 will cause them to tumble
4. The last thing we need is paintball snipers, I remember when I got into this all I heard was: Im a sniper, One shot one kill, Look at my 300 dollar scope, Im a sniper.
5. Complete re-design of the machinery, packaging, shells , and the like is going to make it cost too much to be fun.

[bubbleman441]

I apologize for disagreeing with you, but those FN303 rounds are made by AGD, and weigh 8.5 grams as compared to 3.2 grams for paintballs. The entire point of their increased weight and shot velocity is to induce trauma in whatever they hit so as to stop them. For one, they are shot at a much higher velocity, and secondly they are a lot heavier. What I am saying is that your dad is not using the FN303 or its rounds.

Your injury from an FN303 round will be much worse than that of a paintball from point-blank, and for a number of reasons (insurance and pain), the FN303 rounds as currently made will never be used for paintball. However, the design is effective, and if AGD were to work on it, they could perhaps make a pump gun with either a banana clip above the gun as a gravity feed (10-20 rounds) or if they were to make a semi-automatic, to try to use a box similiar to that used on the SAW.

Understand that the rounds would have to be significantly retooled and redesigned as would the marker that shoots them.

I agree with all of that, just not with the picture that was posted. The round in the picture is certainly not the FN303 round you speak of becuase you people are saying it has fins and has no brass casing...now how can you look at that picture and tell me it has not brass casing? I have some of those rounds right here at home if you guy want to see some pictures, I can get them.

Oh ya, let me correct Sniper kings mistaken picture with the real FN303 round...

[Jaremy Rykker]

That's correct. Sniper King's round is not FN303... and as such it hasn't been mentioned. I believe that round is a simunition. However, your Dad is not using the FN303 round. I can't figure out how in the world to post a picture, so I haven't bothered but I've put up a lot of links.

That round Sniperking posted, does appear in the picture to have a brass casing.

ok here is the problems that I see:

1. You have to do propritary guns due to the fact the shape of the ball wont fit down a std. neck
2. You've seen how the wind effects the heavier spherical paintball, this will be worse
3. Without a regand expansion chamber, the inconstant expansion of Co2 will cause them to tumble
4. The last thing we need is paintball snipers, I remember when I got into this all I heard was: Im a sniper, One shot one kill, Look at my 300 dollar scope, Im a sniper.
5. Complete re-design of the machinery, packaging, shells , and the like is going to make it cost too much to be fun.

1)As I said. A new style of marker would be developed for these rounds. No big deal, and the early model could even be a somewhat expensive pump design and it would still sell.

2)The weight will be the same. However, the design will be different as it will be shaped to be more aerodynamic and the spin imparted on it will balance out its imperfections. The round shape of a paintball makes it so that spin cannot make it more accurate like a bullet. However, spin placed on a bullet-shaped paintball will improve its accuracy.

3)I'd say like most new AGD markers that we make this one an air-only.

4)There currently is no such thing as a real paintball sniper, but a setup like this could make them a reality and actually make them truly effective in that role. Sure, they wouldn't have that same real-world effectiveness, but at least they could do something.

5)We don't need to re-design all of the machinery. Make a few new machines specifically designed for the new design and start producing a basic model. All that would be needed really would be a re-design of the paintball, a re-design of the barrel, and a re-design of the breech. Everything else could remain somewhat the same.

[ogre55]

ok here is the problems that I see:
5. Complete re-design of the machinery, packaging, shells , and the like is going to make it cost too much to be fun.

We already pay a upwards of $1,500 for our markers and sometimes as much as 110 per case of paint. How much more can these things cost?

Ogre

[Jaremy Rykker]

I assure you for one that the design on this shouldn't be that expensive. You will have a redesigned barrel and breech system that is designed for the longer, narrow projectile, and it should have a semi-automatic or pump action.

I doubt the price would be excessive, although it would be higher than normal. I'm just thinking that this could work. Paint would be on the expensive end, but you wouldn't be shooting off 50 shots in hope of a hit. Just a few would work, so paint prices would equal out.

[GoatBoy]

ok here is the problems that I see:

1. You have to do propritary guns due to the fact the shape of the ball wont fit down a std. neck
2. You've seen how the wind effects the heavier spherical paintball, this will be worse
3. Without a regand expansion chamber, the inconstant expansion of Co2 will cause them to tumble
4. The last thing we need is paintball snipers, I remember when I got into this all I heard was: Im a sniper, One shot one kill, Look at my 300 dollar scope, Im a sniper.
5. Complete re-design of the machinery, packaging, shells , and the like is going to make it cost too much to be fun.

1. Wow that's news to me! No, not really.
2. Are you sure it would be worse? How much worse would it be than a normal paintball being tossed around in the wind? You seem to be convinced that it's worse; I'd like to hear some specifics. Don't skimp on the details! At the very least, what happens to your argument should the product be made to be the same weight as a paintball, as I suggested?
3. Well, now you're just babbling. Even if you had a point, we've had regulators and HPA for ages now; since when did trying a new paint style send us tumbling back into the stone ages?
4. *Sigh* You certainly are quite the authority on how other people should have fun.
5. See #2 and #4, and a little bit of #3. And #1.



I'm with Rykker on this one, because I'm pretty sure I'd have a LOT of fun with something like this.

[Jaremy Rykker]

A link to a thread in the Deep Blue forum where I hope to soon get some more solid, technical facts provided regarding the performance of 3.0-3.2 gram bullet-shaped paintball projectiles.

Deep Blue Thread

I might in the coming week or two try to draw out a 3d model of a working pump marker that could fire these sort of rounds.

[the larch]

Originally Posted by xXHavokXx
ok here is the problems that I see:

1. You have to do propritary guns due to the fact the shape of the ball wont fit down a std. neck
2. You've seen how the wind effects the heavier spherical paintball, this will be worse
3. Without a regand expansion chamber, the inconstant expansion of Co2 will cause them to tumble
4. The last thing we need is paintball snipers, I remember when I got into this all I heard was: Im a sniper, One shot one kill, Look at my 300 dollar scope, Im a sniper.
5. Complete re-design of the machinery, packaging, shells , and the like is going to make it cost too much to be fun.

1. Build the marker, make the paintball. Scenario players would EAT IT UP.
2. The wind would have LESS effect on a bullet shaped paintball as long as the spin was high enough. (refer to gyroscopic effect of spinning objects etc...etc.) Though, I would question if our fps limit would allow enough spin to be imparted to make an important difference.
3. CO2 expansion behind the paintball (the only expansion that could effect the ball) is uniform. If it would cause a bullet shaped paintball to tumble, it would cause a round paintball to spin causing it to go wildly off course.
4. Scared of snipers huh?
5. Unless your the guy who does the work, and makes a TON of cash doing it allowing you to drive a new ferrari to your paintball field where you choose which one of the xmags your going to shoot for the day.

THERE IS A THREAD discussing how the new Shockteck DM$ is over $1700. Why in the world would you think people wouldnt pay for something like this then.

[rx2]

I wasn't being a nay-sayer at all. I would personally give them a shot, even at, say, 25 cents per round. However, I am trying to be realisitic. Many people will talk a lot, but when it comes down to acting, they don't. I have seen many times where people say that they will buy something for x amount of money, or that they would like to see something designed in such a way, only to have them complain later, and the product goes bust. There are a lot of fickle people out there, and a lot of people who never really intent to follow through on their word. As for the price, I can think of a couple of things that could jack up the price signifcantly.

For one, you would have to have excellent consistency of size and shape, meeting or exceeding what we already see. If you want to spin this projectile enough that it would impart an effect, you would need to be certain that each round makes maximum contact with the rifling on the barrel, and this is provided we could ever get enough spin into the round at safe velocity, and with current fill viscosity. Any that are too small, or too out of round would suffer. If you make them fit snugly, then you run into the problem of possibly having too many barrel breaks. Even the most expensive paint I have used has not been perfect (which is part of the reason Tom can tout his perfect-circle paintballs). In order to keep the consistency, you may also need to take added precautions against temp and humidity. Of course, you would also need a tray to hold them, as you probably wouldn't want to just throw them in a bag.

Another problem would be in the design of the shell itself. As has been suggested, the parabolic shape would most likely impart more rigidity. If you create a shell that has break points built in to combat this, then you introduce the need for new tools and/or techniques that are not currently employed. Furthermore, you would have to be sure that this didn't weaken the structure in other directions, such that it might lead to more barrel breaks from a snug fit, or the like.

Aa for the size, I don't think you would want them much smaller. Lowering the size, and weight would mean poorer trajectory in the wind, as well as decreased effective range. Furthermore, while the bullet shape would have more volume, you would still need to maintian enough volume that you would create visible hits that aren't so easily wiped. Finally, from my experience, smaller paint (.40 cal) really doesn't break to well to begin with.

Again, I am not saying that this shouldn't be tried, or that I wouldn't use them. But, I do think that it is something that won't be as easy or cost effective as some or you might like to think. Also, we musn't forget the fickle nature of consumers.