wow... just... Wow

[Chris42050]

This world is full of people tryin to get one over on people. Get over it and get smart. Just take this as a lesson. People are gonna do this stuff no matter what. Steal your gun, deceive you on a sale, whatever. It's called greed. Just accept it for what it is and move on and whatch your arse, cause it could happen to you.

[FallNAngel]

"Reason" is the basis for all laws, crimes, etc. If reason, not legalese, tells you that such a EULA is valid, you need to try again.

What do you mean I have to try again?

No, you are missing the point. The thief's actions are completely independant of the victim's. The victim may have neglected to safegaurd his belongings, but that in no way mitigates the act of theft. Actor A took what is not his: that's the only consideration.

No, they are not independant of the victims. Are you saying that had the person brought the marker with them instead of leaving it behind the theif still would have taken it? I'm not trying to justify the theifs actions here. I'm not saying it's OK for the theif to steal because the person should've brought the marker with them. That's not what I'm saying at all. Nor am I saying the actor deserved to have their marker stolen. I'm saying it could have been prevented had the actor brought their marker with them. Just as these people who find they bid on a picture could have prevented their disappointment had they actually taken the time to read the auction.

I don't know about you, but if I'm going to bid on something for $200, you can bet your *** I'll know what I'm bidding on. Unfortunately, as I said before, too many people read the auction and think what they want to think instead of what the auction really says.

[the larch]

FallnAngel, quote and answer this.
Yes, or no, these auctions are designed to find an ebay novice and sell them something different than what they think they are getting.

If, NO, and you believe that the sellers are truly trying to be honest and not "put one over" on someone, then there is no point in conversation.
If, Yes, then you have to agree that their actions, which set out to deceive are an ethical disgrace to the sport of paintball.

Also, the preventability of a crime has no bearing on the justification of commtting the crime.

The people who set up these auctions, know quite well that in the entire world, they may very likely find a person who doesn't have the current facilities to understand the entire auction. They know that if they word things a certain way, they can dupe someone into paying ALOT for a very little because they think they are getting something else. It IS a misrepresentation of a sort and it IS unethical.
What if dominoes advertised a "$3.99 large pepperoni pizza " and you ordered it and got a 3 inch pizza with one large piece of pepperoni on it? Would it be your fault because you didn't clearly read the ad? After all, you did get a large pepperoni and it is a pizza, right?

[FallNAngel]

Before I get into this, I just want to say I'm not trying to argue Larch. Just having a debate, not trying to start a flame war or get anyone riled up over this. If you feel otherwise, let's both just drop it, because that's not where I want to go with this. Having said that...

FallnAngel, quote and answer this.
Yes, or no, these auctions are designed to find an ebay novice and sell them something different than what they think they are getting.

Kinda hard to answer that as I go both ways on this. Just humor me and keep reading ()I'm going by the auction listed in the first post of this thread. That auction (as I've said before) says nothing about the marker. I don't see how someone could possibly read that entire auction and think they were getting a gun when it says several times in both the title and auction that it's the box. Now I've seen auctions that talk about the marker, it's specs, etc and in the corner in tiny font it says that you're bidding on a picture, not the marker itself. That I do agree is trying to deceive someone. This auction in particular though is in absolutely no way trying to deceive anyone.

Also, the preventability of a crime has no bearing on the justification of commtting the crime.

I agree. As I said before though, I think the thing is, you think a crime (of sorts) has been committed here (immoral representation of product, etc). I do not. I'm not trying to argue that the seller is justified in his crime, I'm saying the seller hasn't commited one in the first place.

The people who set up these auctions, know quite well that in the entire world, they may very likely find a person who doesn't have the current facilities to understand the entire auction. They know that if they word things a certain way, they can dupe someone into paying ALOT for a very little because they think they are getting something else. It IS a misrepresentation of a sort and it IS unethical.

Misrepresentation? How so? It says he's selling a BOX. Had he not said box, I'd absolutely agree with you and that it would be misrepresentation. As it is though, it clearly and PLAINLY says it's for a box. Tieing this in with your example below, what if it was advertised as "$3.99 3" large pepperoni pizza" and you got a 3" pizza with a piece of pepperoni on it... would you feel ripped off? I'm sure you would.. personally, I look at that and see they're selling a 3" pizza with pepperoni for 4 bucks.

What if dominoes advertised a "$3.99 large pepperoni pizza " and you ordered it and got a 3 inch pizza with one large piece of pepperoni on it? Would it be your fault because you didn't clearly read the ad? After all, you did get a large pepperoni and it is a pizza, right?

A) Read the paragraph above if you haven't already
B) This depends. Did the ad say it was 3" pizza? If not, then no, it wouldn't be my fault. Much the same as if the auction didn't say it was for a photo and that's what the buyer got.

[the larch]

no, not a flame, a debate, of course.
What I was pointing out in my analogy with the 3 inch pizza, is that people do make certain assumptions when they read an advertisment. How an advertisment is created can enforce those assumptions. in the ad "3.99 Large Pepperoni Pizza" the assumption is that the word large applies to the pizza, and not the topping.....that is an assumption. If a pizza parlor were to prey on that assumption, they could pretty much give you any size pizza they want, as long as the pepperoni was "large"
In the ebay auction at the beginning of this thread, the auctioneer is preying on the assumptions that "ebay newbies" would make reading the auction.
Let me point out some things
1.the title is "SMART PARTS IMPULSE, BRAND NEW BOX!!! not dye, angel" I assert that he is assuming that some people are not going to notice that the word "in" is missing from between the words "new" and "box"
2.his first line of description is "BRAND NEW SMARTPARTS IMPUSLE BOX!!!COMES WITH"
in the auction he underlines "smartparts impusle" but not the word box. He misspells impulse to take the readers attention away from the fact that once again the word "in" is missing.
3. he adds several "revisions" to his auction to confuse the matter with different text sizes and add ons to get people bidding.
4. his statement "Read the description carefully before purchase is made, i do not do returns or refunds. By purchasing this item. You agree to the above statement. Thank you and HAPPY BIDDING !! " Anyone who is selling something for an honest price doesn't need this statement.
5. Nowhere in the auction does he say, "there is no marker for sale, it is just the box."
6. He updated this auction several times. He obviously received several emails. I find it doubtful that he wasn't asked several times if there was a marker in the box. He never updated to say there was no marker.
Simply put, these things make me believe that he knew what he was doing, and planned to send someone a box when they expected a marker.
Please remember, you are intelligent, you do not represent the majority of the people out there. To read this auction from the perspective of someone who "thinks" it is obvious.
What I ask you to do, is go find a couple of junior high kids who are new to paintball, put this auction in with about ten others that are selling markers, and ask them what is for sale in this auction. Think about it.

edited:
As an afterthought, I let my wife read the auction. She has been around paintball and ebay but not alot. She also has a bachelors degree and works for the State in the Department of Juvenile Justice. She didn't realize it was just the box until I pointed it out. Now she's pissed as "gosh darn" It's all a matter or perspective and experience and the seller knows this.

[Destructo6]

What do you mean I have to try again?

Try thinking again. Was that not clear? Such an EULA as described would be just as legitimate as this auction: that is, not at all.

[warbeak2099]

Wow, the impulse guy is making about a $60 profit. The parts he's including are about $140 new. The timmy one is the best though. $381 profit since he didn't have to spend a cent on parts/accesories. Power to the con-artists. A 13yr old shouldn't be shopping on ebay alone anyway. And if his/her parents are involved in the purchase, shame on them for being too naive/ignorant to protect their child.

[anarchistwar]

Only if you can't read.

apparently there are 21 people who can't read....

[FallNAngel]

Larch: Well I'm not sure either of us are really going to agree with the other. This isn't to say I don't understand where you're coming from, trust me I do. I think both of us just have different opinions or outlooks on these types of auctions. If you want to continue debating this, I'm all for it. If not, thanks for having an intelligent debate and not dragging this to a flame war

[the larch]

Probably should end it. From here on out, people are going to come in and start making statements without actually reading the posts. ( we have been rather long winded).
catch ya next time.