Chicken or the Egg - Manufacturers or Players.

[Army]

I agree with Mel on this. Marketing is 55% of influence on sales and products. Another 40% relies on player/buyer ignorance. The last 5% is all about players/buyers that actually use their own judgement in selecting product.

I am proudly a 5%'er

To use Mel's analogy: The Speed is a fine marker, but only WGP HYPE says it's the fastest marker. Anybody seen any proof of this? Didn't think so, since WGP relies on marketing and ignorance to sell their guns. We all know that a MECHANICAL Automag easily surpassed all claims that the Angel has made (Angel says 30bps....we've gone 34bps, with video and sound graphs to prove it). So who is really faster? Go ask Joe Schmedly who only reads APG for all his paintball news and info, he'll tell you the Angel is because AGD is outdated and chops. Yep, AGD didn't change their E/X Mag electronics in all this time, because we remained the true fastest with our "old" technology, no need to bring out the latest greatest new model of whatever because we added new milling for better......something....that looks better or faster in the magazine ads.

AGD could indeed be the gun to have today, if we had blanketed the tourney fields with sponsored teams that only used AGD products. That's all the #1 companies have done. They really haven't made anything new (the DM4/5 is still only a Matrix in a new package, prove me wrong), just marketed to the ignorance of 40% of players/buyers. Others simply add something new to the board, and call it innovative and a must have. A 20% share in this business is a LOT of sales, so hype is the centerpiece of their strategy. I mean really, what is the honest difference in an Angel Fly, and a Speed, other than hype and small changes to their programs?

Phooey. I'll remain a loyal fan of quality and honesty.

[Lurker27]

Angels can cycle 38 cps. To say your Mag is faster is jsut ignorance. Not only was that setup not field legal, but it requires a scuba tank as well. Just stop.

[GT]

Angels can cycle 38 cps. To say your Mag is faster is jsut ignorance. Not only was that setup not field legal, but it requires a scuba tank as well. Just stop.

and so is your comment. any gun that shoots over 20bps isnt legal. Lets not go down the, "my boyz shootx ROXOROR on teh red chrono."

I think the market is bling driven. doesnt matter how good it works rather how good it looks.

[phantomhitman]

this is a vegas style business i think. some of the biggest gamblers have the best luck, whle others bomb out.
dye, for example, put out the most expensive pair of pants in the world. did people buy them, yes!! In my opinion, they are by far the best pair of pants out. Some people say overpriced, some say people are stupid for paying that much. I can justify my $150 pants because I went through 2 pairs of "quality", cheaper pairs of pants last year. The c5s are more comfy, have more features, and have good padding. Hell, I ewill even admit that I like the styling of them also. The high end timmys, dm4-5s, even the xmags were a risk. But people bought into them for either performance, looks, or company loyalty. Few products are a direct result of what people want, basically I am saying it is almost 50-50 like stated before in another post. The company that has the balls to go big sometimes luck out. Advertising really does help, wether its a $150 loader or a $1500 gun, some people are influenced by what others use. Some companies fail also: q-loaders have so much potential but the limited amount of balls and cost of replacement parts killed them. That is the only failure/letdown product that I can think of right now.
about the bps-cps race. there are guns out that can def cycle faster, and shoot paint faster than mags. I do not know about the dropoff of them though. There are videos of the new speed, ramping timmys and dm4s, and cockers shooting fater than 25 bps. There are a select few people in the entire world that can legally pull near 20 bps, but that does not matter because the emag-rts that are shooting fast are in no way legal either. If the e-x mags had a different trigger system or safer/fater software it would get more recognition. But just because a gun can ramp/cheat does not mean all of them do. A lot of people do get the ramping chips to play aorund with, and some even use during tournies which is stupid. That is a completely different topic though

[AGD]

Talking recent times (last 5 years or so) paintball has been a lifestyle not a search for technology. Since most of the products work good enough that its hard to tell the difference then its up to how the product makes you feel. This is where marketing and associate things like sponsoring the right teams/players feeds the need side of the equation.

For technological innovation to break out of the marketing haze there has to be a truely new concept BUT that concept must also be accepted as a new direction by the players. Right now in my opinion most of the corners have been explored. If you want something really new then you would have to accept something like different caliber paint.

Its going to take a bit before everyone is really bored with whats out there now and forces a new change.

AGD

[PBX Ronin 23]

The industry has definitely taken a turn towards lifestyles than technical innovation. That's what WDP and the NPPL is all about. They set the tone and the rest seems to follow.

But as far as technical innovation is concerned, there really hasn't been anything earth shattering in a while. Even the last tech breakthrough, the X-Mag, wasn't as well received as it should have been.

[teufelhunden]

The X-Mag wasn't a technical innovation. It did what had been done for years, just for the first time on a 'Mag. It had eyes... big whop. Old news. Aluminum body... big whop. Old news. It was still an old RT 'Mag at its heart.

[NewMagMan21]

paintball (ball) or the marker...? Think about that

[Jeffy-CanCon]

I'm not sure that's a good way to look at it.

If I look at it from my work eyes, I can see that almost all of our new technology developments come from players who had an idea on how to make something better. There are some truely innovative things that came from elsewhere though and not directly from players.

...

So players are submitting ideas to the companies? Or is it more that top-level tourney players serve as a sort of focus-group for their sponsors, offering ideas on how to improve the products? that would be a logical aspect of the relationship that I had not considered.

[manike]

So players are submitting ideas to the companies? Or is it more that top-level tourney players serve as a sort of focus-group for their sponsors, offering ideas on how to improve the products? that would be a logical aspect of the relationship that I had not considered.

It's not top end tourney guys. Most of what they come up with is laughable.

The best things I've seen recently came from small time back yard inventors.

Paradigm shifts aren't over yet.

[PBX Ronin 23]

The X-Mag wasn't a technical innovation. It did what had been done for years, just for the first time on a 'Mag. It had eyes... big whop. Old news. Aluminum body... big whop. Old news. It was still an old RT 'Mag at its heart.

We can debate this point ad infinitum......but let's not.

[Toxic Dave]

Wouldn't the correct answer be paintball players who work in the industry?? I can't think of a single PB company that is successful right now that doesn't have at least on player in the R&D dept. Dye..all of the people who make decisions are players, SP same thing, NPS same, Shocktech obviously, Pro caps..ballers up there. The list goes on and on. The thing is most of these people have done everything there is in this sport, they have a good idea of what will work, and if people will buy it.

Innovation is great if there is a market for it, if people don't want a product then they aren't gonna get convinced otherwise, no matter how groundbreaking it is. An example... and I'm gonna get lynched I'm sure, but the majority of the PB world doesn't want a hopper mounted under or next to their gun, especially if it requires them to buy different pods that require thought to load. Don't get me wrong both the Warp and the Q are innovative ideas for sure, but you don't see a whole lot of people using them do ya?

No amount of marketing hype is gonna convince people that they want a product they don't really want...and example, all of the WDP guns between the LCD and '05 Speed, all of them had their merits, but none of them gave people what they want...simple machineguns with breakbeam eyes.

dave

[Lohman446]

I am going to go with the players on this one. The question was asked what modifications have been made on markers by players - cheater boards. If it were not for the perception of everyone using them (and by no means everyone) SP would have never had the guts to revamp turbo mode for this era. Once SP did they likely experienced a "burp" in sales that the rest of the manufacturers found very hard to ignore.

Beyond that, lets go with what TK said. What actual performance gains have hit the market recently - what have we seen that has been truly innovative and had any real impact on the way we play? Face it, from the Freestyle at $600 to the $1500 "super markers" what is really the difference. Efficiency, sound, nothing overly consequential really. When I ordered my Devil Mag I did so not because of any performance gain I think I'll get over my Shockers, I did it for style reasons. It hs become more about who can influence the market of style then who leads the way in innovation.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

It's not top end tourney guys. Most of what they come up with is laughable.

The best things I've seen recently came from small time back yard inventors.

Paradigm shifts aren't over yet.

For some reason, it makes me happy to read this. Thanks, Simon.

[PBX Ronin 23]

For some reason, it makes me happy to read this. Thanks, Simon.

I wholeheartedly agree.....lol!