Chicken or the Egg - Manufacturers or Players.

[Army]

Angels can cycle 38 cps. To say your Mag is faster is jsut ignorance. Not only was that setup not field legal, but it requires a scuba tank as well. Just stop.

Thank you! You have proven my argument! By saying Angels go 38 CYCLES per second, you have perpetuated their marketing strategem! Spyders can CYCLE at well over 40cps (ask Nerobro, I dare ya), which makes Angels lying about being the fastest CYCLING gun, doesn't it? But cycling ain't really shooting anything.

I said AGD has proof of actually SHOOTING PAINT at un-equaled speeds (prove me wrong on that...please!). Notice in all the so-called tests they do, other companies do NOT compare their speeds with Automags. Not because of obsolescence on AGD's part, but because other markers know they cannot go that fast without shoot-down, or with shooting paint. Fast cycling boards make for wonderful sounding marketing angles, but mechanical ability can never equal ELECTRICAL ability. Just because the BOARD can do hyper speed (which is what is really being advertised), does NOT mean the gun can go there. WAS is a prime example of marketing genius, since Drew makes great boards that go very fast, but they are MARKETED for guns that cannot use that speed. But he sells so dang many to people that just don't know any better.

Marketing runs paintball, hype runs marketing, ignorance about it all makes players run for the latest bling.

Again, had AGD blanketed 2 dozen teams with Emags, players all over would insist that the Emag is the greatest gun.................this week.

I will stay with my analogy, and be a 5%er.

[Lohman446]

Thank you! You have proven my argument! By saying Angels go 38 CYCLES per second, you have perpetuated their marketing strategem! Spyders can CYCLE at well over 40cps (ask Nerobro, I dare ya), which makes Angels lying about being the fastest CYCLING gun, doesn't it? But cycling ain't really shooting anything.

I said AGD has proof of actually SHOOTING PAINT at un-equaled speeds (prove me wrong on that...please!). Notice in all the so-called tests they do, other companies do NOT compare their speeds with Automags. Not because of obsolescence on AGD's part, but because other markers know they cannot go that fast without shoot-down, or with shooting paint. Fast cycling boards make for wonderful sounding marketing angles, but mechanical ability can never equal ELECTRICAL ability. Just because the BOARD can do hyper speed (which is what is really being advertised), does NOT mean the gun can go there. WAS is a prime example of marketing genius, since Drew makes great boards that go very fast, but they are MARKETED for guns that cannot use that speed. But he sells so dang many to people that just don't know any better.

Marketing runs paintball, hype runs marketing, ignorance about it all makes players run for the latest bling.

Again, had AGD blanketed 2 dozen teams with Emags, players all over would insist that the Emag is the greatest gun.................this week.

I will stay with my analogy, and be a 5%er.

I am going to agree, and then disagree with Army. Part of what hurt AGD was an early marketing push to actually educate the consumer on various aspects of the game, and the technology involved. Now, and TK has said this in another posts, the markers have progressed to a point that it is very hard to show an advantage of one over another, in fact one has to look pretty hard for them. It has left AGD in an awkward position, its now hard to show why they are better... in fact some of those people that TK has trained to ask questions point to factors that would make other markers more friendly to the game. I don't see Angel going in depth to tell me why 38 cylces is better, because eventually they have to explain that is cylces... no paint. Don't tell me "well what are we going to feed it with" - I'm sure you could come up with something, just as AGD has tested beyond Halo speeds (at least when they were testing). They don't test it, because they dont want to know the answers.
Agreed though, if AGD had Dynasty using E/X-mags we would hear how great there eyes (X) and anti-chop systems are. I decided to go back to a mag again... because I wanted something different than anyone else had - and I think the newest incarnation of the mag - the DevilMag is competetive with anything out there. Do I think it is functional better than the Shockers I sold for it - no I don't expect it to be, nor do I care if it is. I am though, taking the chance to be proven wrong - and it is the first marker since my fist mag that I have been truly excited to order - the rest were just tools, this is a work of art, of function, and it is something truly unique.

[PBX Ronin 23]

It seems like a great many of you seem to think that the Players generate more of the innovation in the sport than the manufacturers.

You've also concured that the main thing isn't so much the technical novelty of a product that will dirve the the demand but rather the marketing capabilities of the ones pushing that product.

Does anyone have any beliefs contrary to what I've mentioned above?

[Lohman446]

It seems like a great many of you seem to think that the Players generate more of the innovation in the sport than the manufacturers.

You've also concured that the main thing isn't so much the technical novelty of a product that will dirve the the demand but rather the marketing capabilities of the ones pushing that product.

Does anyone have any beliefs contrary to what I've mentioned above?

Barring a break through innovation on part with compressed air, break beam eyes, force feed - no. I do think that the next big innovation will be complex enough that it will be manufacturer started as its going to take some expertise... but I have no clue what it is... I hope its a minature, on board, electronically driven air compressor, but realize there are some serious technical issues to overcome.

[Toxic Dave]

Mel;

The answer I see being correct is both... Players in the sense that pretty much anybody in the industry plays, I can't think of a single company in paintball that doesn't have a player involved in the R&D process along the line.

dave

[Lurker27]

You want to talk about mechanical limits? Try paint smashing into the other side of the breech past 36 bps or so. BTW here's a video that includes full auto with a victory HALO at v35, fresh batts, and BIP at 1 with a morlock.

http://www.jayloo.com/videos/show_vid.html?pVID=466

Mags are an outdated design. Surely you can't defend the Emag compared to other high end electros. It is outclassed in every conceivable category. Efficiency, speed, anti-chop logic (see speed), weight.

What exactly is your point? I can go make a video right now with that moirlocked timmy, of a few balls and a lot of chops at 36cps. I won't, because its POINTLESS.

That was my whole point. I am so sick and tired of you AGD zealots trotting out Z-man's videos as proof of how great the mag is. It's ludicrous. that was my whole point.

Moreover, your spyder comment destroys your credibility. I could also rig up a sear release mechanism and a qloader, and it would be exactly as practical as a mag with a scuba tank attached.

At any rate, with the same (very fast) fingers, and a setup with no bounce, you'll get better results on a new angel than an emag, because of Shot queueing and eye logic. When L10 pinches a shot, it's still lost.


This is why super-mechs, like (from the factory) mags still being a viable top-tier gun, are a MYTH.

I would only shoot a mag with a 9v compatible electroframe, good eyes, and a L7 bolt. Something like a Devilmag, or (more likely in my case) a T-boarded spydermag.

[Beemer]

Paradigm shifts aren't over yet.

Ha Ha thats a good one. They will never be over. Its getting em started thats the hard part.
Can you say Hopper off the top. I bet you can. I also bet you use a vert feed.

[Lurker27]

They need to make a good tank-mount hopper.

[Vanced]

Its going to take a bit before everyone is really bored with whats out there now and forces a new change.

AGD

Players...

Players back in the day built the innovations they needed... Because a substantial number of the players were mechanically inclined individuals who had the knowledge and skills to innovate their own equipment.... And to be honest they had too... you didn't have dozen's of internet sites or pro shops to choose from... mainly just a few bad black and white catalogs if you were lucky...

Players today force the innovations... Errrrrrr..... Inovative Bling & And Innovative ways to achive questionably more BPS.... with their wallets (or their parents)....

Because without the demand of the players no matter how great the product is will die and rot on the shelves... and with today's younger player demographic, who I would feel comfortable saying, can't mechancially truly understand their gun, thus can't innovate on it... demand the things they truly do understand and can argue/discuss ...

Marketing Hype, Fo'Shizzle & Da Shiz-Nit of it all, Shinnys & Bling, and Shots per second...

Until the generally accepted or universally ignored rules of the game change, neither will this progression ( At least in the public perception of paintball I.E. - Tourny Ball & Speed Style Rec Ball )

NOTE: YES, this is not a blanket answer.... There are a lot of brillant players and people out there... and it is totally my point of view from what I have seen generally changing in my many years of playing...

[PBX Ronin 23]

Interesting perspective. I certainly do see your point about the old timers needing to innovate because there were no other source for such innovations.

Now all the "Aggists" have to do is run to the 14 pro-shop close to them or order from the 'net. I guess we can all draw the conclusion that the Mother of All Invention today in paintball is some 14 y.o. in South Cali.....lol.