Hegemony in Paintball - Is it possible?

[chairman_mao]

I don't pretend to know much about the paintball industry and polotics but it seems that having two major distributors/manufacturers can't be too much of a bad thing. While one may always have more of the market share they will not (in all likelyhood) cause the other to go out of business. The way I think of it is like Nike and Adidas (I know there are other major shoe/athletic companies) they are and have been battling each other for what seems like EVER and they are both still around. Understandable PB is a very different animal but the comparison is there.

It has already been stated that marker quality has reached a pinnicle and will most likely platue or has already. So does that mean that now we are just looking for the creation of two or more conglomerates to increase the scale of production and reduce the cost to consumers? Will paint be $25 a case soon? Probably not but I think we'd all like to see it. I wish I had some incredible and insightful perspective to offer this discussion but really all I want is cheaper paint. I know currently it's markedly cheaper than it has ever been but I want it cheaper still. That's just my opinion.

[PBX Ronin 23]

NPS is maybe 5% of of the size of K2 in the big picture of things, and paintball really isn't a big part of K2's portfolio. I don't know how much K2 cares about the traditional paintball market, but I'm sure it isn't too big a deal for them when they are shipping a thousand trilogy's to Sports Authority every week, not to mention the ungodly amount of BE product.

You're right if you were to aggregate all of K2's businesses. But if you were just to look at paintball division, the differences isn't all that. What K2 has is what everyone of the PB big boys want. NPS with their new gun could have just the ticket to start occupying more shelf space at WalMart.

The suspense of this impending major announcement is killing me....

[SlartyBartFast]

Maybe even WDP perhaps?

Those drums from over the pond?

The gossip is just fighting to get out of your head isn't it.

[Kevmaster]

You're right if you were to aggregate all of K2's businesses. But if you were just to look at paintball division, the differences isn't all that. What K2 has is what everyone of the PB big boys want. NPS with their new gun could have just the ticket to start occupying more shelf space at WalMart.

The suspense of this impending major announcement is killing me....

Mel,

BE alone in 2003 fiscal year pulled in 115 million gross. (about 15 of that was profit if i remember right). National's numbers arn't public as they arn't a public company, but I can't imagine NPS topping them in that regard.

[PBX Ronin 23]

The only reason that I put WDP into the mix is that within the next twelve months, they may be the sole owners the patent for electros. If the SP patent gets invalidated (and smart money says that it could), this leaves the boys from Birmingham sitting on the cat's bird seat with the ability to influence the industry for the life of that patent.

I'd like to get Ged Green (WDP), Lynn Scott (BE/K2), Bud Orr (WGP), Jeff Perlmutter (PMI) and Gino Postorivo (NPS) all in the same room....get them drunk...and have them spill the beans. Because of one these gentlemen will most likely be in the middle of the hottest rumor in paintball.

[manike]

National's numbers arn't public as they arn't a public company.

So maybe it would be sensible not to make assumptions about how they lie in relationship to BE/VL/WGP?

[PBX Ronin 23]

Mel,

BE alone in 2003 fiscal year pulled in 115 million gross. (about 15 of that was profit if i remember right). National's numbers arn't public as they arn't a public company, but I can't imagine NPS topping them in that regard.

Although that's true about BE (since they're a publicly traded company) because it's easier to get the info, don't under estimate the boys from Mantua, NJ. It's tough to put any number for them since they're a privately held concern. I would speculate as an outsider that there's more than meets the eye.

NPS certainly have made some bold forward-thinking moves (i.e. TV show, various exclusive distribution deals, new technology, etc.) that practically ensures their market position for years to come.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Welcome back Manike. I hope all is as well as can be expected.

[Enemy]

so far with the exemption of the wgp buy out k2 has had a main stay in the lowend market!! nps so far is strictly highend.. lets face it for every person thats willing to drop 100+ in a marker there are 50 that think 200 is highpriced!! but i think NPS will never be out done especially with empire, bob long, and some actually good paint backing them. k2 however wont be out done but in the same stroke i dont see them really going after major big time gun manufacters why would they when the low end is so good to them!!

[Steelrat]

AKA's website states that they will be coming out with a major announcement. Could that be a coincidence?

[pump]

soon it will be against the law to shoot any paintgun that is not made by a so called manufacturer

muuuuuuhahahahahahahaha

[PBX Ronin 23]

so far with the exemption of the wgp buy out k2 has had a main stay in the lowend market!! nps so far is strictly highend.. lets face it for every person thats willing to drop 100+ in a marker there are 50 that think 200 is highpriced!! but i think NPS will never be out done especially with empire, bob long, and some actually good paint backing them. k2 however wont be out done but in the same stroke i dont see them really going after major big time gun manufacters why would they when the low end is so good to them!!

Well, NPS does a lot of low end too but you're right. K2 with BE and with the Trilogy series from WGP are pretty strong when it comes to the Walmart side of paintball distribution.

Who knows what's going to happen. Maybe K2 might want to start moving up in the market place and encroach on the high-end to add more credibility to their existing brands.

[BigEvil]

Where do you see NPS lacking? They have guns, masks and paint. They might not be the mfg for each of those, but they end up with the sole distribution of them.

Now, K2 has the same, plus their parents have more money. But again, that is why I am not sure who will come out on top. You have to look at how NPS got started, if anything Gino is a great business man.

BTW: I am not a supporter of NPS. They still owe my team prizes from IAO last year.

I guess you know that they arent exactly the most 'customer friendly' organization out there. I had been dealing with their subsidiaries for years (888pb & 800pb) since they opened there doors, spent literally thousands of dollars for myself and my team with them, then the one time I had a major issue with product they sent me I was basically told "Sorry, your screwed". And yes, this was a direct dealing with NPS... I really dont want to go into it, since there is an investigation from my credit card company going on, and I also dont want to raise my blood pressure anymore from thinking about it.

Basically my point is, that if there was an alternative to dealing with NPS, I think people would take it. They ARE the industry in many cases, and you just can not avoid dealing with them in some manner. It is very difficult to buy from somewhere that doesnt do business with NPS.

[GT]

The irony here is that we as consumers want choice from DIFFERENT companies. The problem is that we want cheaper prices. In order for that to happen products need to be made in a larger volume. At some point we will only see 1/2 dozen pb companies with a higher quality gun at a better price. Befor this plunges into a poly sci desucsion lets all reameber that choice is expensive.

Personally I wasnt always an NPS fan, but after meeting Manike, and witnessing the care that is put into thier products, and others he designs, I think the future is in good hands with a company like nps.


-gt

[SlartyBartFast]

Who knows what's going to happen. Maybe K2 might want to start moving up in the market place and encroach on the high-end to add more credibility to their existing brands.

Why? How does "credibility" with a minority of paintball players in a low magin elite part of the sport help their sales to the unwashed masses in Bigbox stores?

And doesn't K2 have some "upscale" cred already with WGP products?