Hegemony in Paintball - Is it possible?

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  • teufelhunden
    Registered Bamf
    • Jul 2003
    • 2691

    #31
    I don't believe WGP is considered 'upscale' anymore. Look at how few Karnis sell. WGP is surely holding firm in the midrange, but for whatever reason, the Autococker is not looked upon as a high end gun, no matter what it's dressed in.

    If the Eclipse rumors are true, however..
    SwallowBleach: It's good for you.

    www.seckspb.com: for all your third party needs


    Where have all the scooters gone? -BobTheCow

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    • PBX Ronin 23
      Registered User
      • Jul 2004
      • 518

      #32
      Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
      Why? How does "credibility" with a minority of paintball players in a low magin elite part of the sport help their sales to the unwashed masses in Bigbox stores?

      And doesn't K2 have some "upscale" cred already with WGP products?
      WGP's presence is definitely sliding from the upscale segment and they're putting a lock on the mid-range. If K2 is successful in creating an "upscale" flavor in some of their product lines, it would have a coat-tail effect and add some more legitemacy to some of their other product lines.
      /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
      PBX Battlezone
      PBX Paintball Station Inc.
      PBX Ballistix Lab
      PBX@NYC Paintball

      Comment

      • GT
        Automag?
        • Dec 2001
        • 5786

        #33
        no offense,
        when did wgp ever offer a true top notch product? there top crop line is littile more than nickel plated pneumatics with an e frame. Please, Ill take the super stock for half the price trabeck. What is the gun that wasn't a complete rip off in the wgp line?


        The only cockers that were creme de la..... were third party made, aka, splatattack, doc, bbt, etc.....
        FOR SALE
        on/off, sear, PROConnect
        AGD back bottle asa, laser logo

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        • PBX Ronin 23
          Registered User
          • Jul 2004
          • 518

          #34
          Outside the Karni, WGP really hasn't done a true high high-end. Maybe a true low to mid high-end like the e-Orracles or even the old STO's. They've always historically followed the innovation set by third-parties. That's always been the case historically.
          /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
          PBX Battlezone
          PBX Paintball Station Inc.
          PBX Ballistix Lab
          PBX@NYC Paintball

          Comment

          • Kevmaster
            Owners Group Div: Director
            • Oct 2001
            • 5475

            #35
            Originally posted by manike
            So maybe it would be sensible not to make assumptions about how they lie in relationship to BE/VL/WGP?
            You're right. I know all I am doing is making assumptions. However, it is my FEEL that NPS does not approach the 100M mark. Maybe I am way off base. Only a select few at NPS probably have the real answer (Yourself included). In my dealings with the industry, I just don't see NPS being as large and as powerful as BE/VL/JT/WGP.

            Again, though, I could be entirely wrong

            Comment

            • manike
              INCEPTIONDESIGNS.COM

              • Jan 2001
              • 3820

              #36
              NPS is far larger and more powerful than you think.
              Inception Designs - My new company where Innovation is the Inspiration

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              • smilestyler
                Ace Dentura

                • Oct 2002
                • 975

                #37
                Originally posted by manike
                NPS is far larger and more powerful than you think.
                LOL, sounds like the dark side of the force.

                Comment

                • Kevmaster
                  Owners Group Div: Director
                  • Oct 2001
                  • 5475

                  #38
                  Originally posted by manike
                  NPS is far larger and more powerful than you think.
                  Fair Enough.

                  Comment

                  • PBX Ronin 23
                    Registered User
                    • Jul 2004
                    • 518

                    #39
                    If the SP patent gets invalidated and WDP has sole ownership of the E-gun patent, would WDP have the necessary leverage to become the biggest force in the industry?
                    /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
                    PBX Battlezone
                    PBX Paintball Station Inc.
                    PBX Ballistix Lab
                    PBX@NYC Paintball

                    Comment

                    • Lurker27
                      Registered User
                      • Jun 2004
                      • 287

                      #40
                      Um...Yes.

                      That's assuming that the US Navy patents that predate even the WDP patents aren't upheld.

                      Comment

                      • PAINTBALLNEWBIE
                        Je mange du poulet. mmmmm
                        • Mar 2004
                        • 2666

                        #41
                        I think K2 will because they have Viewloader, WGP, Pure energy they have all the bases covered with products, and all are popular...I have a feeling that they will control alot of the lower end market, and WDP the higher end. But thats I just me, I have no idea who will come ahead.


                        EDIT: I beleive I was wrong with pure energy...but WGP still makes tanks.

                        Comment

                        • rabidchihauhau
                          What Oppenheimer said 7/16
                          • Sep 2001
                          • 766

                          #42
                          You all are not looking at the BIG-ENOUGH picture.

                          BOTH heavy-hitters (NPS, K2) need to grow market share in order to stay afloat.

                          NPS developed the traditional market and is strongest there. K2 developed the mass-merchandise market and is strong there. (When I say K2, I mean the whole conglomeration.)

                          The ONLY place for either of these guys to go is into each other's backyards. K2 started working in the traditional market with their Maxis line (a line where the guns are available in both markets but the accessories are only available to traditional outlets).

                          NPS is busily trying to solidfy their base and workinig, no doubt, on breaking into mass merchandise. (I see a bit of a hiccup there, as NPS likes to stay on top of their dollars and chains like Wal-Mart like to do the same, so there's potentially a bit of a clash there; add to that the fact that K2 will basically get 'right of first refusal' over any product introed to W*M that is in a niche they already have product in; lets put it this way. K2 has an inside track with most 'box' stores, which makes it difficult for competitors to get in there.)

                          Given that the market is somewheres between 2/3rds and 3/4s backyard players, most of whom are introduced through box stores, the REAL battle is in finding ways to transition those folks to the respective product lines once they become 'regular' players. In that battle, K2 has the edge on OPPORTUNITY, while NPS has the edge in migration path.

                          So far as muscle, reach, funding and etc goes - again, K2 has the edge. While BE/WGP is only a small part of their empire, in their first quarter earnings, BE had the best numbers, so you can bet the K2 corporate types are DEFINATELY paying lots of attention to paintball.

                          When it comes to IP, again, K2 has the dollars and the muscle to obtain whatever they want/need AND to enforce it. NPS is definately working on the innovation end and building their portfolio, but IP is dicey. The system is ultimately designed to pressure folks into competing through innovation (screw those guys, I'm not paying them a royalty, I'm going to invent around them!).

                          If you spend several mil making the next best, gear up for production and then someone else, a little more innovative than you, improves your product or designs around it, it leaves you with a white elephant. So, ultimately, the issue is not over IP control, its over control of the distribution chain.

                          Both NPS and K2 could be doing things better for themselves. Will there be a hegemony? If so, only temporarily, as the US Government holds the monopoly over all trade in this country and when someone gets too big and influential, they can be called in on grounds of anti-trust - so what both the industry giants actually want to do is to get to that magical 70% of the market and then stay there.
                          VENGEANCE PAINTBALL DISTRIBUTORS
                          X.O. INDUSTRIES PAINTBALLS

                          Comment

                          • SlartyBartFast
                            The Flying Scotsman
                            • Jun 2002
                            • 2940

                            #43
                            Originally posted by rabidchihauhau
                            BOTH heavy-hitters (NPS, K2) need to grow market share in order to stay afloat.
                            A disgusting falacy that is at the heart of many failures in the business world and the skewed fiction of the stock market. THere is a rediculous beleif that an investemtn is only good if the business continues to expand and profits always increase. Stable companies and good investments are those that remain viable and continue to make steady profits and maintain their market share.

                            Growth and capture of market share DO NOT equal profits or sustainable business. I don't think Glenn Palmer has EVER gained market share. Yet, PPS is still a going concern ("afloat").

                            Sure, growth IS good and CAN be extremely profitable. But, the day that a company starts looking like it is growing for the sake of growing is the day that you want to get your investment out.

                            Comment

                            • hitech
                              Not a shedder of vortices
                              • Nov 2001
                              • 4775

                              #44
                              I've seen growth kill companies. I don't personally subscribe to the adage that you have to grow to survive. It's never that simple.


                              Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
                              Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
                              The only Hitech Lubricant

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                              • PBX Ronin 23
                                Registered User
                                • Jul 2004
                                • 518

                                #45
                                Originally posted by rabidchihauhau
                                Both NPS and K2 could be doing things better for themselves. Will there be a hegemony? If so, only temporarily, as the US Government holds the monopoly over all trade in this country and when someone gets too big and influential, they can be called in on grounds of anti-trust - so what both the industry giants actually want to do is to get to that magical 70% of the market and then stay there.
                                The only problem to this Steve is that the paintball industry still doesn't have it's own SIC (Standards Industry Code) and still fall within the Sporting Goods Manufacturing realm. This is the mechanism that the Federal government uses to track a company's market share within a certain industry in order to prevent the creation of monopolies through the Hart Scott Rodino Act.

                                The necessary triggers that requires reporting requirements with the Feds will not happen until the industry is assigned its own SIC number. So a company that has 90% market share in the paintball industry will only be seen by the Feds as having a miniscule percentage of the Sporting Goods industry....and thus no need for concern on the Feds' part.

                                That's why it is a possibility (not a probability) to have hegemony in paintball.
                                /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
                                PBX Battlezone
                                PBX Paintball Station Inc.
                                PBX Ballistix Lab
                                PBX@NYC Paintball

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