NEW Smart Parts Midlevel Low Price Marker

[RRfireblade]

It's a pretty good looking unattrictive marker,

Probably shoots as slow as any other decent mid-level marker,

Plastic composite is pretty cheesy and breaks often even though there is plastic in bullet proof vests that can take a direct shot,

It probably won't do very well, only sell about as many as Tippy sells of the A5 or ICD of the BKO,

Who really want's to have a bunch of available color options comparable to the AGD ULE bodies for far less money anyway?

It's just another SP product.

IMO.

[Ydna]

It seems to me that some poeple are missing the main characteristic of the gun, that it doesn't have a traditional body. There are only two internals to the whole firing assembly, the fire chamber and the bolt. The fire chamber screws onto the breech section. The only part of the whole gun where tolerances even come into effect (besides for the outsourced solenoid) is these two firing assembly parts. Funcitonal parts are then covered by the exoskeleton.

Powdercoating is completely beside the point since none of the functional parts are powdercoated. Tolerances on teh frame, trigger, these effect the firing of the marker somehow if they're off by some amount coincident with a tolerance mistake? no....

The whole debate here seems to have folded down to whether it will be reliable or not. Of course the bottomline is, nobody knows until the time comes. What is the point in *****ing about how cheap the Impulse was or wasn't made in the past? SP does like to use lowgrade aluminum, if that's what the complaining is about....i certainly hope not.
It is true that the more things change the more they stay the same, but then again Smart Parts has never sold this kind of gun for $300 before.

[evildead420]

all we know that this topic is on the 7th page after a day, so this new marker will get alot of attention and buyers

[txaggie08]

for those of you that are telling steelrat that the saying you get what you pay for is a crok!!
shot a dm4 then shot a spyder or tippman tell me there is no difference!! now drive a civic then drive a ferrari 360 hell drive a porsche boxter or a corvette and tell me that the civic handled better had a better torque curve!! even felt better and i will slap you for lieing!!
you get what you pay for. be it that some things may have bigger value than others see corvette versus viper!! but a corvette has its downfalls from a viper and a viper from a ferrari and a lower end ferrari from a lamborgihni(sp im tired), lambo from enzo, enzo from mclarren f1!! hmm see a pattern here!!

now seeing smartparts quality control among other things i see me becoming a tech on this marker quick because i see lots of tear downs and even more telling kids that same phrase you get what you payed for!!

i soent thirty minutes yesterday typin a realy nice reply explaining in explicit detail the governing principle behind why steelrat is wrong, please go back and read it. its nice to see a few people on her have taken basic economics and undestand diminishing retrrns(that or its clicked in your heads, and you may want to consider what you want for a new career)

[txaggie08]

I would also like to make it known i will be happy to wuote from an economics textbook when i get home next friday. Maybe if you wont listen to me youlld listen to them.

[PumpPlayer]

People Don't Want to Pull Their Own Triggers Anymore...

Since everybody is getting in on the action, I'll throw my two cents down on the floor, roll the dice and see how they fall.

First, a quote from the review article that jumped right out at me:

Get this - $380 CDN ($300 USD)! There is simply nothing in this class for this price.

Well THAT'S certainly not true... I can think of at least half a dozen quality markers that retail for under $300. So is the point that they can shoot 17 bps? First, I don't really see that as being the amazing part. I'll argue against the need for more than 10 bps 'till the cows come home, but this isn't the place for such a debate. Second, I don't think anyone has thought about the additional expenses that go with shooting 17 bps. Will it work at 17bps with CO2? Probably not. Will it shoot 17 bps with a standard non-motorized hopper? Deffinitely not. So right there you've added at least $300 to the price of the marker in order to achieve the advertized 17 bps. So $600 total. If the marker originally cost $500, you'd be making a total investment of $800. So while someone can look at a $300 marker as think they're saving 40%, they're really only saving 25%. Furthermore, tack on the price of a mask, pods and other equipment, you reduce your percentage savings by buying a lower-priced marker. Yes, a dollar is still a dollar, but certain things have a fixed price. If you consider other expenses associated with the sport, the marker (while most people see it as the highest-cost item) is actually only a small portion of the total cost of playing. Just paint for a year is significantly more expensive, as an example, than the cost of a $300 marker. Especially if you plan to shoot 17 bps!

So, is it an advantage to the consumer that the marker is less expensive? No, deffinitely not. But will consumers THINK that it is an advantage? Absolutely. That's what will sell these markers: The preception that the end consumer is getting a good deal. Can I say whether or not this marker will be reliable? No, I haven't ever seen one, much less shot it. I think those of us who make comments on the reliability are simply going off SP's very poor track record of quality. However, as many people have alluded to with complaints of looks, body design and even brand, there may be factors more important than cost, efficiency and reliability.

I'm not going to try to start a brand war here, but there is no question that BRAND plays an important part in many consumers' decisions regardless of the market. Think about the Honda vs. Harley Davidson debate... I don't care what your preference is and I won't give mine, but to motorcycle consumers, brand makes a BIG difference. Likewise, to paintball consumers, brand is important. Players place their entire identity with a specific style of play, marker type, setup and even the colors they wear. They will defend their brand decisions with vigor. Many paintballers (myself included) have a severe DISlike for SP. Why? I find their business practices unethical. Legal, perhaps, but that's not the issue. So we immediately begin with a negative opinion of all SP products. Might my opinion change if proved wrong? Yes. But right now, I'm skeptical.

Someone stated that if AGD had released the Ion, we would be worshipping it. That's doubtful for two reasons. First, AGD would never make this type of marker. It's not their style. That's why their fans admire them. "Because quality always shoots straight." Yes, it's a catchy slogan, but it has meaning. It means they choose quality and reliability over cost. It's why 'mags over the years have had stainless steel valves. It's expensive to machine stainless. It takes longer and requires more durable, expensive equipment. Only recently did they switch to aluminum. Why aluminum? Because they were finally able to get an alloy that lives up to their expectations of performance. All alloys are not the same simply because their base metal is aluminum. One masterful remark to this fact noted that SP uses "velveta strength" aluminum. I laughed for a full minute at that because it's true. As to the plastic construction being comparable to AGD's carbon fiber grip frames... I'm going to have to disagree. Yes, the carbon fibers are encased in polymer that could be termed 'plastic'. Glocks are technically 'plastic' too and we've all heard of their legendary reliability and performance. Just as all aluminum alloys are not the same, all plastics are not the same either. So, AGD would never produce the Ion and I think that's a bit of a moot point.

Second, if AGD did produce the Ion, I doubt anyone would be worshipping it. Sure it might receive a few nods that it would not get with SP, but that's because we expect high quality from AGD. We expect low quality from SP. By and large, however, I think AGD's following would be very disappointed if they released an Ion-like marker. AGD has always carried only a few models of marker and has produced them using quality, durable construction. As their slogan suggests, quality is more important than anything else. For AGD to produce an Ion-like marker, it would indicate that they had given up their commitment to quality. They would have 'sold-out' and it would be a real disappointment to me and many others.

Lastly, a word to all electro-toting 17 bps lovers: we like mechanical markers for two reasons. First, they are preferred because they are reliable and keep us confident in our equipment. Second, using a mechanical marker is a form of 'protest' to the path the industry is going in. You may say that electronic markers are reliable. Sure. After you get it wet? Maybe it's a well-protected electronic marker, but good ol' H2O will destroy it. Sorry, that's just not my style. Yes, I take care of my equipment and I doubt I would ever NEED its resilient properties, but I like that it's there. I'm never going to put 3k psi to my mag's valve... but I like the fact that it's durable enough to handle it. I like being able to buy an ill-cared-for second-hand mag that's 10 years old and never had the seals replaced once, gas it up and shoot it like it was new (well, almost new). And yes, I've done it as I'm sure many people have. And it worked like a charm. Did it shoot 17 bps? No... but it was quality, which is more important both to me and many people.

In summary, you have to ask yourself, is quality more important than price? Do I want something reliable or cheap? Am I going to play for a year or two and then hang it up or will I play for a long time? Will I still be shooting this marker in 10 years? If you're a budget-conscious kid that wants to play for a few years then quit; who wants to try running before he can walk; and doesn't care about brand loyalty or what any respectable paintball player would say to someone who uses SP equipment... Then get an Ion by all means.

As a proud owner of AGD, CCI and especially ICD equipment, I do not buy SP products (not even the freak set). I will encourage any prospective customer to steer away from SP. I do not trust the Ion and you will never see it or any other SP marker in my hands. That's my personal choice. Feel free to have your own opinions, but I stick by mine.

[Ydna]

It's okay to be skeptical. Encouraged, even.
The only reserve is, though, that wherever there's an SP-oponent whom will assume it's low-q until proven therwise, there is always an SP proponent thinking the opposite.
And as always first impressions will matter...luckily the Ion has been in development for somewhat longer than the Shocker SFT was.

[Carazy]

Since everybody is getting in on the action, I'll throw my two cents down on the floor, roll the dice and see how they fall.

Your first point

Its not any cheaper.

The point is it is cheaper. You're going to have to buy all that stuff you mentioned no matter what. You don't want to shoot an automag with a regular viewloader.

But its SP

SP has made guns that people use, some people like SP's guns. I have a maxflo tank and I am very satisfied with it. You kept comparing SP to Airgun and saying that everything on that ion is cheap yet none of us have actually seen it in person or held it. These are all just estimates right now.

Its electric you douse it in water and it won't work

Most of the electric guns are sealed well enough where unless its a monsoon outside then they will still work. I wouldn't go out there with a real expensive gun but it still stands that most will work in little bit of rain.

Thats about all I have to say. Basically I was just mad about your money part.

[VFX_Fenix]

Yes, the carbon fibers are encased in polymer that could be termed 'plastic'. Glocks are technically 'plastic' too and we've all heard of their legendary reliability and performance.

Glocks also suffer from explosive dissasembly in their .40 S&W models because they took the cheep and easy route to get a pistol chambered in that calibur to the market. One thing that Glock does have going for it though, they're not all that pricey compaired to similarly sized models by H&K or Sig Sauer

[Steelrat]

i soent thirty minutes yesterday typin a realy nice reply explaining in explicit detail the governing principle behind why steelrat is wrong, please go back and read it. its nice to see a few people on her have taken basic economics and undestand diminishing retrrns(that or its clicked in your heads, and you may want to consider what you want for a new career)

No, I am not wrong, so please stop with the lecturing, nobody is impressed by your knowledge of economics. Also, just because you explained your position, that does not mean everyone has to agree with it.

I understand diminishing returns, as Im sure most people do. I said "You get what you pay for, not "When you pay $1500 you get a gun that is 5 times better than one that is $300." When you pay, say, $800 for an AKA viking for example, you get high-grade aluminum, tight tolerances, all-metal construction, type 3 anodization, super-strong feedneck threading, etc etc. When you buy a $300 Ion, you get a plastic body, simplified reg, PROBABLE soft aluminum internals, lower-end electronics, etc etc. See, doesnt that make sense? Its not ALWAYS true that the higher cost item uses higher quality (or cost) parts, but in this case, it is. Note that I said NOTHING about performance, once again.

And like I said earlier, if this gun were the second coming of Christ, wouldn't SP be shooting itself in the foot by impacting sales of nerves and shockers? THAT IS BASIC ECONOMICS! You don't compete with yourself! I'm sure it'll be competitive at the $300 price point, but I doubt it will, or was even intended to, compete with more expensive markers.

[Lohman446]

Ready to admit something - that DM5, that Angel, that... well whatever was never worth $1200 worth of materials and production. There cost was associated with research and development and marketing.

SP took a chance here... they looked at the cost of a marker
Research and devlopment - probably very little comparatively, considering this is using a spool valve and they have had pretty good sucess in the past. They have used various lessons learned in the past an applied them - don't be surprised if a lot of the ideas come from the many attempts and failures of the Nerve before they got one working right.

Marketing - how much has SP spent marketing this thing so far - some space on there website, handing it to a few people to right reviews. SO FAR they have not spent much on marketing and I will bet you they are selling A LOT of these. When I had mine ordered they ordered some more for the store because they were so impressed. Wait until these start showing up on the store, in ramping mode, next to the Spyders. I think these things are going to sell. SP can market them next to the Shocker Especially if other rumors hold true that one of the sponsored SP teams may use them - the rumor I heard was Miami Effect may be using these things shortly - and that is a rumor from my various calls to SP yesterday in regards to this marker.

They did address production costs. Likely one of the more expensive parts of production involved getting a marker ready for, and annoing the thing - these have both been addressed. As stated above, the only important tolerances are really inside the breech.

So they have cut the price further on the production of this marker... and are still selling it likely at a good profit. What are we going to think when the price comes down a touch (assuming it does). They could have made this marker, cut costs, and not hurt performance at all - we will not know if they did until we try it. I think a lot of people are hoping it does not perform.

"You get what you pay for" is only true to a point. I have said for a long time that markers are built beyond what we can reasonbly use. I mean, who hits 32BPS on there mag? Who hits an honest 17+ on a legal semi-auto marker anyway. With the current rules in PSP allowing ramping and limiting it to 15BPS what is the advantage of having a marker capable of 30BPS. Sure you get what you pay for - but if the speed limit is enforced at 25MPH and there are no corners what good is a Porsche over an Escort?

I think SP made a serious look at what was actually used in a marker, aimed for it and hit it. I hope all of you who have said "its not the marker, its the player" remember that. I hope all of you who call this a kiddie gun get a chance to play against a good team with them. And I really hope they smoke you . Its not just a kiddie gun. There are players who are 30 years old, could afford any marker they wanted, and are simply not going to spend $1000 on a marker. Just because I can, doesn't mean I am going to. Ok, so I ordered a DevilMag.. I can and will. But you get the point... I know some very good players who are seriously going to look at this marker.

Do I think this marker is perfect how it is? Not at all. I expect to hate the reg on it, and replace it - I might be surprised. I expect to find quality control issues with it - I might be surprised. I already ordered a new feedneck to fit the halo I have cut for the CCM no-pro neck. I expect to see an efficiency mod for it from somewhere at some point.

SPs marketing department did a great job on this, they followed what sells, and made an inexpensive marker to it
Ion VS ULE RT Pro I understand this is not necessarily a fair comparison, but it is one that people looking at it will make. I obviously understand the RT has some points the Ion will not

Break beam eyes - ION - yes / RT - NO - but we have LX (see how stupid this statement sounds, its like WDP no but we have COPS)

Electronic firing - Ion yes / RT NO But we are submersible

Rebound firing - Ion yes / RT No... but we can increase input pressure and cause runaway...

PSP 15BPS ramping - Ion yes / RT No

Magnetic trigger - Ion yes / RT No but we have RT effect, and are mechanical

Used by a "pro" team - Ion - maybe / RT - definately not but thats by choice.. there just as good

Low pressure operation - Ion yes / RT - no.. BUT it doesnt make a difference

Compare the ion to the other markers people will compare it to, it compares pretty well. It might look decent even (don't know I think it looks ok). There will be custom shells for them I am sure. Durability... good question, I am curious on this one. And you can compare SP and AGD business practices all you want. Most consumers don't really care - its not like the Gardners were sacrificing babies. In fact, some consumers beleive that AGD and others knowingly violated patent law in the production of the E-mag (I didn't say it was a well founded beleif... I just said it was a beleif I have heard).

[PumpPlayer]

Glocks also suffer from explosive dissasembly in their .40 S&W models because they took the cheep and easy route to get a pistol chambered in that calibur to the market. One thing that Glock does have going for it though, they're not all that pricey compaired to similarly sized models by H&K or Sig Sauer

I'm not well-read on my tactical handgun information. I simply chose the original 9mm Glock as an example of the ruggedness of modern polymers. I suppose modern bicycle helmets, artificial hearts or other high durability plastic items would also have worked as well.

I've never fired any Glocks other than the original 9mm. I'm a competition .22 olympic discipline shooter (no, not IN the olympics -I wish-, just the same disciplines - 10m air, 50 ft standard and 50m free) and I have to say I know a lot more about companies like Feinwerkbau, Hammerlei and TOZ. But thanks for the insight.

I think it's a classic example of rushing a product and sacrificing quality. And it illustrates that even great companies are suceptible to temptation.

Edit for Carazy: I wasn't saying that the actual price was less, I'm making the point that percentage savings are not as great as some people are liable to think. Given fixed costs of loaders, air systems and safety equipment, saving $100 on a marker is small in PERCENTAGE when you look at the overall cost of playing. I believe I noted this with a concession that, "...a dollar is still a dollar." Yes, you are going to save money, but it's the difference of $900 to $800, NOT the difference of $400 to $300. Therefore, your precentage savings are low when you look at the overall cost. I didn't say that you wouldn't save money at all.

Also, I'm going to make another pro-mechanical statement here. Yes, I understand that the electronics of electro markers aren't just hanging out of the gun waiting to get paint or water on them. However, I simply prefer mechanical systems. I find them to be far more artistic than electrical versions. Art? Come on, right? Well, given the prevailing opinions of the physical shape and color of markers, I'd say aesthetics are important. To me, I find mechanical systems aesthetically pleasing. I AM an engineer, so feel free to laugh at me for saying that... Am I saying that there can't be creativity and ingenuity in electrical systems? Not at all... I just personally feel that my marker's reliability is more important than its speed.

Oh, and I DO use a non-motorized, gravity fed hopper on my mag... it's a pre-BE VL-200.

[Steelrat]

Ready to admit something - that DM5, that Angel, that... well whatever was never worth $1200 worth of materials and production. There cost was associated with research and development and marketing.

Sure I am ready to admit it, in fact I completely agree with that. However, I also think the Ion does not cost $300 to make, and includes R&D and marketing. So, since both include those costs, we are back at square one.

And again, why would we even begin to say that it is, or isn't, able to compete with $300 guns, or even $1200 guns? Has anyone shot it yet, or played with it? Looking at the specs is cool, and shows that it has some interesting features, but it tells us very little about how well it will actually work.

That being said, I'm sure that it will work fine, though it will have some initial problems like every other marker.

[GT]

Note that I said NOTHING about performance, once again.

What we fail to argue is where people weight their values with the facts.

[Lohman446]

And like I said earlier, if this gun were the second coming of Christ, wouldn't SP be shooting itself in the foot by impacting sales of nerves and shockers? THAT IS BASIC ECONOMICS! You don't compete with yourself! I'm sure it'll be competitive at the $300 price point, but I doubt it will, or was even intended to, compete with more expensive markers.

No, because a lot of players, myself included, are idiots and will pay extra money for fancy milling, annodizing, to use what Dynasty/Strange use, because it says Dye on it, because AKA made it, or for whatever stupid reason even if it has nothing to do with actual performance - the ability to put paintballs on your target.

They may loose a few Shocker/nerve sales... and gain a few sales from Timmies/DM5s/etc. but they are betting (I think correctly) that the arrogance of tournament players who would have bought high end markers will show through and they will buy them anyways.