Rouge mag Or Ion

[Faction_Zero]

...and I think the Ion is made by Saturn

...and Saturn is a division of GM.

[ultralight]

so everyones gonna get away with having it on super bouncy full auto?

how many people you think get it past 15?

first sentence post #19.
i am all for the 15bps cap. it keeps things fun and more importantly safe.

edit: im not even going to bother commenting on this, all im going to say is to check the developments with wdp

i've kept myself fairly up to date on the recent legal battle and subsequent joint custody of the patents. i seem to be missing your point. are you saying that sp isn't the only one doing it?

The marker is all American made, only the polymer exoskeleton is foreign made.

Facts work much better in a discussion.

considering that the exoskeleton is part of the marker, it can't be said that the marker is all american made. however you do have a point, it is mostly american made. but for how long?
the two real problems i see with out sourcing production of parts to other countries are that it is a very slippery slope. and many companies start by out sourcing small things to other countrys and end up (due to tremendous labor/plant costs) making products that were only designed and sold in the U.S.A.. and that when you are having things built overseas it becomes very difficult to maintain quality control standards.

KTM, my advice is to head to your local field/pro shop and check out the mags and the ion. test them and figure out what you like and which features are important to you.

[Army]

The "not made in America" argument is silly. How many of you have owned a Spyder? My guess would be...a whole lot of you. How many of you would pee their pants to have an Angel, and brag about it? How many of you have checked the label on your jersey and tourney pants? Shoes you play in? How about them paintballs, with many being made in Canada?

Well, we can call Canada the "Northern Posessions"

[ultralight]

The "not made in America" argument is silly. How many of you have owned a Spyder? My guess would be...a whole lot of you. How many of you would pee their pants to have an Angel, and brag about it? How many of you have checked the label on your jersey and tourney pants? Shoes you play in? How about them paintballs, with many being made in Canada?

Well, we can call Canada the "Northern Posessions"

hahahahaa. its funny cause it's true.
i count myself among the lucky few who have never experienced the "joys" of a spyder firsthand. i have heard my friends whining about them alot though.

[openboater]

Mag pluses
First off, I am not going to discuss this as a LX X-valved mag. I think if your using it solely as a backup marker this is a mistake. LX requires too much tuning to be the old reliable workhorse marker that the classic was.

Shortcoming
1) If you are able to shoot over 15BPS you have no way of limiting yourself to be within current PSP rules

I haven't touched my LX's in over 2 years. once they got really broken in, oil and shoot. the only time I had real problems was playing in early march, when I'd prep the marker inside at 70 degrees and then play outside at 33 and rain / show. For your backup to be trully usefull, you have to treat it just like your prime before the day starts. Run it past the chrono and have it ready to go if needed.

to limit the BPS just turndown the input pressure to reduce the reactivity, or have your brain tell the finger not to shoot so fast.

one factor that has been touched on is the resale factor. sometimes it's hard to sell a whole marker, but the beauty of a mag is you can part it out.

and with a simple $20 parts kit, you know you've got virtually everything you need to make a mag run again if it hiccups.

[Lohman446]

I haven't touched my LX's in over 2 years. once they got really broken in, oil and shoot. the only time I had real problems was playing in early march, when I'd prep the marker inside at 70 degrees and then play outside at 33 and rain / show. For your backup to be trully usefull, you have to treat it just like your prime before the day starts. Run it past the chrono and have it ready to go if needed.

to limit the BPS just turndown the input pressure to reduce the reactivity, or have your brain tell the finger not to shoot so fast.

one factor that has been touched on is the resale factor. sometimes it's hard to sell a whole marker, but the beauty of a mag is you can part it out.

and with a simple $20 parts kit, you know you've got virtually everything you need to make a mag run again if it hiccups.

I have owned several LX mags - One E-mag, a couple RT Pro style (built off AM/MM rails before the current RT Pro). Now I will note these were all aluminum X-valves, maybe the X-valve is the issue. To me, LX, when you had it tuned "close" was finicky. If you didn't tune it close it broke paint. I stand by my comment that LX, most of the time, is not the reliable workhorse that the classic mag was

[Lohman446]

What a surprise... Quoted from Level 10 installation instructions:

• Fine tuning
  For most people the setup outlined above will make every paintball day a great experience. For those looking to get maximum anti chop with fragile tourney paint we offer the following suggestions. The O-ring friction can be used to additionally slow the bolt down. By going to the next smaller carrier you add an additional layer of protection at the expense of risking bolt stick. You must keep your marker oiled daily to keep it working reliably. The long mainspring can be trimmed to further fine tune the performance. The best performance comes when the marker just starts firing at 270 fps and works reliably at 290 fps.
  
  The penalty for over tuning is the fact that the marker may occasionally refuse to fire. This is because the main spring combined with the power tub O-ring has too much sticktion to let the bolt go forward. Try at your own risk.

I was trying to make the point that it is finicky. And it is to have it set "tight". I don't have this problem with break beam eyes, or Vision.

Then you must be using some crappy paint.

Funny, same paint through my Shocker after I got sick of my mag chopping it never was an issue.

Yeah, I gotta roll my eyes at this one too. Thats not a very bold statement to stand behind, since Tom himself said that Level 10 would require tuning and not be as simple as Level 7.

The simplicity of Level 7 is what made it the *workhorse* of reliability that it is.

Fine, I stated a well backed argument, whats your point?

Very few instances where you can have your cake and eat it too. With every benefit comes a drawback. In the case of Level 10, you need to tune it. Level 7, it wasnt as in-depth or necessary(or finicky).

Whats the drawback of vision and break beam eyes? If it fails it can be turned off instantly, on field, without dismantling the marker

Dont like Level 10? Go back to Level 7, nothing is stopping you.

Nice attitude, I chose option B - sold the E-mag bought a Shocker with Vision. I now am trying option C - a Devilmag. The point is, that attitude pushed me out of mags at one point and coming back.... well its harder to get a customer back. I was not at all unhappy with my Shockers, coming back was because I wanted something that TK had a hand in and not anything more.

And before you get to the point that I'm trying to be against you - do note my first post on this subject indicated that the Rogue Mag - or whatever you have called it, may very well be the better marker for the job. I did clarify that to some degree, but of the Ion and it, the Mag is the better marker for what he intends to use it for, for a series of reasons, at least in my opinion. However, in the same boat I would also consider a cheaper, and perhaps better suited marker in a classic mag.

[TheTramp]

I don't understand why people (you included) insist or comparing L10 with electronic eyes. The thing that makes L10 so wonderful is that it adds anti-chop protection to a MECHANICAL marker. Something that can't (obviously) be done with eyes.

If you want to shoot a mechanical marker, which a lot of people do, then L10 is one of the best things that has ever been developed.

My classic valved Mag was a "reliable workhorse" at fireing but since it chopped regularly a lot of those shots didn't result in a ball going anywhere near my target.


Also, I instaled my L10 when I got the "beta" kit and I haven't changed anything since the 1000 shot carrier change. Med. spring and I don't chop. Chuff? yes, barrel break? sometimes. No chops.

[Lohman446]

I don't understand why people (you included) insist or comparing L10 with electronic eyes. The thing that makes L10 so wonderful is that it adds anti-chop protection to a MECHANICAL marker. Something that can't (obviously) be done with eyes.

We were comparing a mag to an Ion, so the comparison of there anti-chop devices seemed to be applicable.

[openboater]

on a scale of 1 to 10, ten being best for a guaranteed to work backup marker

level 7 mag I give an 8, I found once I chopped, I had problems til I thoroughly cleaned it.

Lx mag I give a 9 for the first year and a 10 after that due to learning curve and break-in

Tippman I give a 10 for guaranteed to work, but 5 for everything else.

ION, I can't comment cause I've never even touched one.



this is my personal belief, nothing scientific or concrete about it.

[Lohman446]

Its only finicky if you tune it to the edge of performance, as stated in the instructions above. Once I got mine tuned, I havent had a problem with the Level 10. Not once. Now am I representatvie of the majority, or are you? I dont know.

But I do know the majority of those that follow the instructions and expect from the product what it states in those instructions are satisfied with their Level 10.

I stated 2 possiblities...you are focusing on only one. Please read the other.

Yep, you can turn it off....and then chop. Then whats the difference?

Drawback= they dont work 100% of the time either. Ive seen plenty of players with "break beam eyes" and "vision" that malfucntioned, got gunked up and/or didnt work in the middle of a game.

The attitude that what?...someone expects a product not to be finicky when the instructions say it will be when tuned to maximum performance?

And then complain that its finicky when they tune it to maximum performance?

Who said I thought you were against me? I thought this was a discussion of differing opinions?

For the average player, Level 10 is AWESOME at what it was intended to do....

Prevent the majority of breech chops that Level 7 gave Mags the reputation of a blender.

Ok, I may have read hostility into your post that wasn't there. I'll even take the blame for that one, no hard feelings.

The discussion over LX and eyes has been done before... a million times so I'll just leave it. Let me put this out there though. With markers realistically shooting in the 15BPS area and feeders feeding at 22+, except for the very bottom of the feeder anti-chop systems may be considred overly important - I don't think there that needed. I think this is why everyone thinks that the eyes are so much better than they were pre-HALO.

I admit that my experiences with my E-mag were, in general, from me pushing it to the very edges of performance - and by the time I was done I really really hated that marker and it left a bad taste for everything mag related that took me some time - half a year to get over. As such my experiences are likely not indicative of the majority. My point is the Shocker, giving me the same or better performance than my mag was not nearly as finicky - though it had its own problems that were tuning related. PS they (I had several, my main, my primary, and a loaner) had some problems that were manufacturer related that I never had with my mag.

[tony3]

Yep, you are right rogue, smartparts is going to make good first batch guns then make horrible ones from then on, explains why the first batch shockers were sooo good You got to be kidding me.

[Rinaldo]

not saying that you would or even should shoot at 26 or 32. i was simply pointing out that the ion doesn't have a speed advantage over a mag. and if you look you can find great deals on automags. i picked up a factory assembled tac one with ult installed in pristine condition for $320.
i picked up another x valved mag for $290, they are out there and relatively easy to find. imo if you are relying on an electro as your primary it is wise to avoid "putting all of your eggs in one basket" by having a mechanical backup.
then again i'm a big fan of reliability... i started with a vm68.

Help me find a mag of that quality and price and I'll hook you up with something you'll really like.

Hit me up On AIM ABC Rinaldo

[Lohman446]

Are you saying the first batch of shockers was good? Or bad?

I couldnt tell through the sarcasm

The first batch of 03 Shockers definetly had there issues if I recall correctly (I did not buy one until early 04).

However, SP seems to have gotten the release of the Nerves right technically, though from a business aspect it sucked. The Ions, at least the ones I have seen and shot, seem to be overall good quality.