Stock Tac oneVs.Stock 04 Cocker

[Swampthing777]

Allrighty,

Firstly, let me say something about paintball guns. I am of the mindset that a paintball gun should be like Italian food. It should be good all the way through. If the bread is good then the main course will be too. Thats why I like markers that are smoking out of the box. (After all at 400 bucks they ought to be).
Therefore when I ask for advice I am speaking about the guns in mostly stock form.
(That ismaybe a barrel or a drop forward or something but no internal mods)

I have been in the sport now for about 6 yrs.

My first gun was a Spyder TL and it was great ...I got it for its simplicity and durability it was all of that.But of course low rate of fire and poor consistency/accuracy
At one point I was actually looking at the old NOVA series because for the most part they where similair in design to mags but a little less expensive...

anyway...since then I purchased an 04' cocker with the vertical feed. I have a drop forward and a LAPCO bigshot on it.

The first time I used it in a scenario game at Waynes World in Ocala , I had to go through a major hassle just to chrono it...(Had to take the cocking rod off and then get the allen wrench in there to tweak it). Then it chopped the hell out of my ammo. I actually had a jammed gun in head to head combat. Needless to say I was rather pissed. I worked on my trigger pull technique and resolved some of the chopping issues and I got a better barrel.
This solved most of the chopping problems. However I have always been nervous about the complexity of the cocker.
That being said I respect its accuracy quite a bit. I like to be able to lay down paint in a pinch. However, I find myself usually taking a back position and firing carefully from the tree line.

Also keep in mind, that compared to the Spyder, my gas efficiency with CO2 was significantly worse on the cocker.

I looked at mags before I got the cocker.
However, everyone told me that ,"closedbolt" markers were so much more accurate. I think it sounds reasonable, however, I have since determined that paint match and shot consistency are equally critical if not more so...at least with airguns i am seriously looking at the tac.

Before...I had always heard that in stock form... mags where gas hogs, and inaccurate...although they could lay paint. I value accuracy and simplicity.
Gas innefficiency I can live with but I need accuracy.

So...

My question is

in regards to the TAC ONE, which do you think is more accurate. AGD Tac One or WGP 04' Vert Feed Cocker

Assuming paint and barrel match. Also keep in mind that I have not done anything to the cocker internally and dont plan to.

So basically we are talking about essentially stock markers (give or take a barrel and bottom line).

Also...can the TAC ONE operate with CO2 (Can it...not should it).

Also exactly how does the mag cycle? (I.e. does the barrel blow forward...is there an internal bolt...what).

I have alwyas liked the looks of the mag...the mini was my favorite looks wise. I think simplicity is beautiful...it works and thats all that matters.

Frankly the Cocker is heavy and bulky at times...especially when running through brush. I just know that one day a thorn or something is going to snag a hose and that'll be it for a while for the cocker.

Allrighty, this looks like you guys know your stuff I look forward to talking with you

Swampthing

[TheTramp]

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Allrighty,
...

My question is

in regards to the TAC ONE, which do you think is more accurate. AGD Tac One or WGP 04' Vert Feed Cocker

Assuming paint and barrel match. Also keep in mind that I have not done anything to the cocker internally and dont plan to.

So basically we are talking about essentially stock markers (give or take a barrel and bottom line).

Also...can the TAC ONE operate with CO2 (Can it...not should it).

Also exactly how does the mag cycle? (I.e. does the barrel blow forward...is there an internal bolt...what).

I have alwyas liked the looks of the mag...the mini was my favorite looks wise. I think simplicity is beautiful...it works and thats all that matters.

Frankly the Cocker is heavy and bulky at times...especially when running through brush. I just know that one day a thorn or something is going to snag a hose and that'll be it for a while for the cocker.

Allrighty, this looks like you guys know your stuff I look forward to talking with you

Swampthing

Accuracy-wise, they should be very similar. It's mostly dependent on paint-barrel match, and consistent velocity.

The Tac-One does not operate with CO2 at this time. There was talk of selling a mod for the regulator that would allow it to operate with CO2, but I don't think it is available.

The bolt moves in all the AGD guns. It is held to the rear by a strong spring, and pulling the trigger releases the gas to push the bolt forward and fire the paintball. Note: the actual gas-pressure on the ball itself is as low or lower than "low pressure" electros.

[SCpoloRicker]

Yes! I so prefer the good old cocker vs mag argument over any others!

/serious

I would point you towards Compressed Air instead of CO2. Beyond that, I'd say go used and pick up both! Maybe not a Tac-1, but RT ules are usually around 4-500, and used 2kx cockers hover around 175-200 used.

Accuracy is, to a degree, effected by paint to barrel. IMO, consistent recharge is the most important factor in shooting tight ropes of paint.

[Target Practice]

Accuracy is, to a degree, effected by paint to barrel. IMO, consistent recharge is the most important factor in shooting tight ropes of paint.

Exactly! This is why I've moved away from Xvalves, the valve that comes on the Tac One. It's made out of Al to save weight, but this also makes it subject to higher inconsistencies at the chrono. I had two Xvalves, and I could never get them to work correctly. I who-- Damn, gotta go to class.

[SlartyBartFast]

It's made out of Al to save weight, but this also makes it subject to higher inconsistencies at the chrono.

What on Earth are you talking about? What the valve is made of has nothing to do with how consistent it is.

[SCpoloRicker]

What on Earth are you talking about? What the valve is made of has nothing to do with how consistent it is.

I DO NOT know this for sure, but this is not the first time I've heard that the SS valves are a little bit more consistent than the Aluminum ones.

[Almeister]

I DO NOT know this for sure, but this is not the first time I've heard that the SS valves are a little bit more consistent than the Aluminum ones.

I've never heared of that before. I have both and I see no inconsistencies in either one. The only difference I see between the stainless steel and aluminum is durability and weight. If anyone else cares to add to that please feel free.

[trains are bad]

I do not reccomend any flavor of mag if you plan to use CO2.

There should be no accuracy difference due to the marker design. Accuracy is mostly affected by the quality of the paint you are shooting.

[Swampthing777]

OK...getting an idea

Does anybody know where I can see a moving diagram of the mag's interal operation?

As for accuracy, there is something to be said for internal movement and accuracy. Because the paintball is travelling slowly (relatively speaking when compared with other projectiles).
The more rattle the action causes ,the more the vibration and thus your accuracy is decreased.

Thus , there is something to be said for closed bolt operation.

That being said...ive shot the cocker for about a year now. I like it...however, consistency and ease of portability is also very important to me.

Accuracy ... yeah... ok...paint to barrel is critical, I know . The short of my question I think is which one is more consistent? Cocker with stock internals or Tac 1?


right now I'm thinking that tac 1 wins that bet based on the other posts i have seen that discuss chrono speeds.

One thing I can say is that the cocker is better velocity wise than the spyder but never as tight as the x-valve setup apperantly is.

Compressed air, i suppose is the way to go regardless. I have heard many,many people recomend this route.

its just so damn expensive (unless you guys know of a good source).

OK, what don't you guys like about the Tac 1?

I need to know the good and the bad.

Ive heard that it goes through gas more than spyders...but is it worse than cockers?

That is really secondary anyway...I want to know about the TAC 1 combat feel...and how owners feel about that particular gun. I know most of you out there have used a cocker at some point. Sadly, I have yet to use a mag. I will try to get my hands on one soon. But I don't have any friends with mags. They've all gone to cockers or electro of the month.

I usually end up sitting back and trying to pick off my targets with accuracy and relatively few shots. I like the idea of using the trigger like a mouse button (squeeze the trigger till it clicks) as opposed to having to actually allow the trigger to swing back to its ,"at rest position"

Would you recomend the Tac 1 for this sort of game play?
Thanks

[TMAXXKING1]

here you go

here is the animation on for the valve and alot of other great info..

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40904

[TheTramp]

Does anybody know where I can see a moving diagram of the mag's interal operation?

As for accuracy, there is something to be said for internal movement and accuracy. Because the paintball is travelling slowly (relatively speaking when compared with other projectiles).
The more rattle the action causes ,the more the vibration and thus your accuracy is decreased.

Thus , there is something to be said for closed bolt operation.

The Mag has one significant moving part. The Cocker has countless. If you buy into the moving parts theory of Cocker accuracy that you'll have to say that after the first shot a cocker must be the most inaccurate gun out there as it has the most moving parts. It's the same as all the rest so the "theory" is bunk.

I like the idea of using the trigger like a mouse button (squeeze the trigger till it clicks) as opposed to having to actually allow the trigger to swing back to its ,"at rest position"

In that case you need an eectro as they are the guns that have "mouse click" triggers.

[Banshee23]

As for accuracy, there is something to be said for internal movement and accuracy. Because the paintball is travelling slowly (relatively speaking when compared with other projectiles).
The more rattle the action causes ,the more the vibration and thus your accuracy is decreased.

Thus , there is something to be said for closed bolt operation.

Accuracy ... yeah... ok...paint to barrel is critical, I know . The short of my question I think is which one is more consistent? Cocker with stock internals or Tac 1?

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Compressed air, i suppose is the way to go regardless. I have heard many,many people recomend this route.

its just so damn expensive (unless you guys know of a good source).

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OK, what don't you guys like about the Tac 1?

I need to know the good and the bad.

Ive heard that it goes through gas more than spyders...but is it worse than cockers?

Ok here we go:

#1 - The cocker is not going to be any more accurate than the Tac-1. As far as consistency the Tac-1 would probably be a little more consistant than the stock cocker.

#2 - Look in the sale forums for a HPA tank, you'll find 68/4.5k tanks for around $110-$125, 68/3k tanks for under $100. Brand new they're expensive wherever you go.

#3 - Only drawback to a Tac-1 over a RT Pro is that it weighs a little more due to the larger body. Also, the Level 10 on the X-valve will probably need tuning. But after it's setup it'll be virtually chop-proof, whereas with the cocker you'd have to buy an aftermarker bolt. As for efficency, you'll get somewhere between 1,000 to 1,200 shots off of a 68/45 tank. Depending on how the Spyder or Cocker is setup this will either be better or worse than those.

As a side note, you mentioned short stroking the trigger on the cocker earlier. With the reactive trigger on the X-valve it's very difficult to short stroke as it pushes the trigger back for you

[Swampthing777]

nice feedback

All right,

I'm getting a good idea.

I like Banshee's info thats the kinda stuff I was looking for.

Thanks.

As for the whole theory being ,"bunk". it is in fact sound. With the cocker, immediately after the trigger is pulled, the round leaves the chamber...as apposed to pulling the trigger and having a bolt released,slam into a valve and release the air.

Not saying that mags are inferior.

Just saying that at least theoretically , the cocker is "Accurate". The tramp was not all wrong, though.

Fewer parts to move = fewer things to go wrong. Thats good!

Allright, so

the Tac One = consistency and simplicity + durability this to me means good reliability in combat ,fewer jams in a bind and long term use.

Cocker=unique firing mechanism which can + accuracy however suffers from consistancy+bulk and more moving parts= possiblity for problems down road an poor shooting.

Thanks for your help guys.

Swampthing

[TheTramp]

All right,

As for the whole theory being ,"bunk". it is in fact sound. With the cocker, immediately after the trigger is pulled, the round leaves the chamber...as apposed to pulling the trigger and having a bolt released,slam into a valve and release the air.

Not saying that mags are inferior.

Just saying that at least theoretically , the cocker is "Accurate". The tramp was not all wrong, though.

Fewer parts to move = fewer things to go wrong. Thats good!

"Not all wrong" LOL

What happens when "the round leaves the chamber" in a cocker? All sorts of stuff moves so the next shot (unless you wait a few seconds) is being effected by that movment. So....as I said the first shot may have this extra accuracy but nothing after that.

As proven in multi shot bench tests cockers aren't any less accurate than other guns even though they have more moving parts after the first shot. It seems to follow that moving parts don't play much of a roll.