Stock Tac oneVs.Stock 04 Cocker

[Swampthing777]

Like I said you were'nt completely off base. But as I said...it is a rare for me to lay down large strings of paint.thus for my style of play the accuracy would be "good".
But whatever...we could go round and round on this.

Simplicity is good, I like that. nuf said.

As for mouse click...I suppose light would have been a better word. I dont like the cocker trigger.

I feel like I'm moving my hands to much to get an accurate shot.

I dont think that I would have that kind of issue with the mag.

[SlartyBartFast]

As for the whole theory being ,"bunk". it is in fact sound. With the cocker, immediately after the trigger is pulled, the round leaves the chamber...as apposed to pulling the trigger and having a bolt released,slam into a valve and release the air.

No, the theory is bunk and your description of the cocker (and Mag) operation is erroneous. Once you pull the trigger on a cocker, the hammer is the first thing to move.

The only difference between markers that COULD affect "accuracy" is reciprocating mass and recoil. And then, it really only affects continuous fire, not aim and single shot. Between a cocker and a mag, the cocker has a MUCH higher reciprocating mass.

Ball bounce/bobble has been discounted too often to be taken seriously. So you can discount the effect of bolt on ball while firing.

[osustevie]

My 2 cents worth

I have done Autocockers(Orracle) and a Tac One. I still have a 68Mag w/ lvl 7 bolt. That said I have become a huge fan of Palmer guns. These things are so smooth to shoot and they shoot darts too. Glenn Palmer did autococking before it was a "cocker". The Palmer Blazer is a closed bolt design with all the pnuematics built internal to the gun. No hoses flopping around here. Stock outta the box I will take a Blazer over any autococker or mag. Its a mech gun so no batteries to worry about. Simple to clean and known for accauracy and reliablilty. They are comparable in price to a Tac One. They were DESIGNED to run on CO2. You can use HPA with them as well without a hitch(I do). Also I have a ton of research on Palmers stuff and I have never found a posting on any forum(here, PBN, MacB, PBreview) where a player was giving up Palmer guns and moving to something else. It just doesnt happen that I can find. With a Blazer there is no need to buy any upgrades including barrels. A lot of folks buy Palmer parts as upgrades. The barrel is amazing too. It is eliptically honed. (Shaped like a football) and made of solid brass. Glenn Palmer has been making paintball guns for more than 15 years. Yeah I sound like a fanboy but that is because I have tried other guns and I finally found what works for me. Check the other forums. Palmer fans are as nuts for their guns as the folks are here at AO. Here are a few links:

http://www.palmer-pursuit.com/catalog/blazer.htm

http://www.pbnation.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=242

http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/205/

My Blazer

[Duck Hunt]

I own a X valved ULE mag. My main Barrel is a PMI Omen barrel I got for free, and when my paint doesn't match that I used a BACK from my friends Evil Pipe kit.

As long as my paint matches, over a red chrono I ALWAYS get 299, 299, 298.

I have 2 friends with Eblades and they chrono anywhere from 250 to 312.

Theres NO hammer slamming into a valve on the Mag. I can easily shoot this gun without and noticeably kick to it.

Hands down Mags are more shot consistant.

Sean

[peewee]

Hey stop hangin that blazer out there, makes me jealous. Having owned many mags & cockers my vote goes to the tac one. Doesnt have those little autococker random burps in performance. Sold my 03 cocker to get my ULE & am much happier. ULE's are a little cheaper but give the same performance as a tac one. Tacs are hard eye candy....

[Beemer]

Welcome To AO

Here Ya go

Mag.Gif from here

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=158050&highlight=gifs

[punkncat]

MY opinion and experiances with each of the markers in question....
I haven't owned an actual Tac One, but have owned the X valve. So the workings are the same. I have also owned countless Classic Mags, and I have owned quite a few cockers.

First off "accuracy"(I use that term loosely) in a paintball comes from good round paint, through a decent barrel and consistant air source......hold up....notice I say nothing about paint to barrel match? Well here is my experiance with it. As long as the paint isn't too big for the bore, you have little problems with barrel breaks. I always just use an oversize bore and go with it, except with a cocker. And thats only to keep the balls from rolling out.
Paintballs are inaccurate just as a matter of course. They are relatively light, barely spherical balls of wax being propelled at around 280FPS. All manner of outside forces can alter its trajectory, not to mention its own seams and dimples or flatspots. So getting a good round paint from the start will affect so called accuracy much more than anything else.
Having a good consistant air source has as major an impact on accuracy as well. Whether you use CO2 or HPA its important to maintain a good even pressure for your marker to work with. HPA just happens to be easier to do this with. A good remote line, anti siphon, or job specific reg along with lowered operating pressure makes CO2 more consistant as well.

Ok, so I am rambling off subject a bit. Allow me to get back on track. In my experiance these are MY pros and cons about the markers in question. I am not trying to say this is the end all be all, bible of facts about them. Just MHO. With that said here goes...

Mag:
A really sturdy marker that is super easy to repair and troubleshoot. Very reliable, and has a great compact feel. Classics are prone to short stroke if you don't pull full strokes, much like a cocker. Classics will work on CO2 with the proper percautions, but work better with HPA. Super easy to personalize. I won't say upgrade, because functionally the ONLY upgrades are level 10 and you might say a trigger frame, but thats open to discussion. Really the "upgrade" to a mag is the ability to make it so incredibly light. The X valves are definately the fastest mech available. They are lighter than the classic by a significant amount. Drawbacks are that they are not able to run on CO2, they are quirky and tend not to be as reliable as the classic valve. Don't get me wrong. The classic was SO super reliable that ANYTHING fades in comparison. LX and ULT only add to this quirkyness. Once the valve and LX is tuned its good to go, but ever run into a recurring problem and it can be a nightmare. Many here won't agree, I am just stating my experiance.

Cocker:
Really sturdy with a meaty bulky feel. Totally magical in awe factor with all the moving parts. This in turn also causes many people to be sceptical about their ability to work on the marker. Honestly it is quite a bit more involved to work on, and has a specific order that things need to be dealt with in order to get it right.Once its right you just leave it be! One of the biggest drawbacks is the fact that you MUST pull a full stroke in order not to cause serious problems, like chops. Cockers have a great balance in general but are a bit heavy. The rear block moving actually gives the marker a real gun feel as it "kicks back". Cockers can run at extremely low pressures. This makes them ideal for use with CO2, although they work well on HPA as well. They can be tuned to be quite efficent. It goes without saying that its possibly the MOST upgradable marker on the market. Many items available to enhance its performance. And there are cockers available to fit any price range from beginner to pro. The worst thing of all is that lately cockers can't hold a resale valve in spite of their quality design.

I don't want to give the wrong impression. I love and own both a cocker and a mag. I enjoy each. Honestly though, if I had to choose between an X valved mag and a cocker, I would go with the cocker. Its simply more versatile. The mag is awesome. With a properly tuned LX and a good HPA source, you will simply not find a better mech marker. But out in the woods having to use CO2, or slapping on an Eblade and going to a tourney...the cocker has it all covered.

[Swampthing777]

good points

I like your angle.

The versatility of the cocker is definitely a benefit.

The electronic grip does definitely aleviate concerns regarding trigger length.

I guess its really a matter of personal taste.

I really think simplicity in design is a major factor in performance.

I am stilll kind of up in the air. And it all really hinges on price. For me ...450 ish is a pretty steep price + the HPA of at least another 100 or so dollars is somewhat cost prohibitive.

Try justifying that expense to your wife or girlfriend. Especially when I told her that the cocker was ,"The last Gun I had to get".


Anyway...

I suppose with the proper regulator the cocker could be made to give better all around consistency.

Maybe even compressed air.

I prefer CO2 though...for me it is just easier to find refill stations.

DOnt get me wrong...it is a very good gun...its just it is more ,"Work" to operate than the spyder style weapon.

I realize you can't have your cake and eat it too...but you can try.

Anyway...I think I'll wait for the mag to come down in price a bit...get some more feedback, and get a good reg for the cocker.

But please ...don't let this thread end here...I love debating the pros and cons of each side.



THanks

[dj89]

WEll i sure that some people have already posted what i would type so i'm not going to do it but take a look at theses. I think you would be more happy with a Tac One if you get nirto.

[punkncat]

If your cocker is still stock let me offer a few suggestions to get it rocking and make you much happier.

First get a good 3 way. The Bomb is one of my favs. It has a really short stroke, which in turn relates to shorter trigger pull. It has small holes in the body of the 3 way that actually allow you to tune it perfectly first time. It take the guesswork and minute adjusting out of the picture.

Find a good hinge frame. I suggest the Dye, but an Eclipse is good as well. What makes them superior is the fact that they come with trigger stops. So when you get it timed perfectly, you can stop the trigger at just the right point and make the pull as short as possible. Slider triggers offer a great short pull as well, cause you are litterally only pulling the length of your 3 way.

Adjust your sear so thats its firm enough to require you to pull slightly hard. You may think that bad, but heres the good. Having to pull slightly hard kind of forces you to pull a full pull each time. You have to pull just hard enough that when you actually overcome the sear "weight" you also have pulled all the way to the stop. It will also give the trigger a crisp definate feel.

The stock reg on a cocker is actually pretty good for use with CO2 and HPA. The only real drawback is that it has no external adjustment. Using an anti siphon for CO2, or a remote setup will solve many inconsistancy issues. Of course HPA resolves them all.

Unless you eblade the cocker , the stock ram does all it nees to and quite well. I am not saying there aren't better rams available, but for a mech cocker it just doesn't really need it. Getting a good bolt isn't a bad idea. The AKA lightning bolt is about the best available for a cocker, and will reduce your operating pressure a bit.

There are many things you can do to a cocker to make it "better", but they are usually pretty good out of the box. Don't let the timing of it scare you. There are many good infosheets out there. I actually have Ravi's saved. It made me a Guru just by reading it. Really simple stuff once you take the time to stop and see how it works.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

After looking at those gifs of the automag and the autococker i just buy a tac one thanks with help with my decsion.

[Swampthing777]

thks

the 04 cocker already has a decent hinge frame/trigger...with an adjustable trigger.

I already have an anti siphon tube

and I was thinking about another regulator and ram etc...

But I have to say...that...especially when I'm doing scenario games...the cocker is heavy and the parts snag on my ghillie and vines quite easily.

I just like the simplicity of the mag.

Having been in the sport for a while now...I've heard quite a few different ideas about paintball accuracy. When I first got in it was,"Get the longest barrel you can"..then it was, "Cockers are accurate b/c they are 'closed bolt'" then it was barrell to paint match etc...

After having many conversations,seeing many diagrams and haveing played many games...
I have come to a few conclusions.

WHen I first got in...all I ever read was stuff involving ,"How my Spyder beat an Angel" blah blah blah.
I thought I had it pretty good with a qualitative semi auto (Spyder TL)

But I now realize that although it wasn't bad it wasn't the best either.

I remember a game where I actually gave this one kid a handful of paint for the last game of the night. He was on the other side...but I was being nice.

from accross the field...he gogged me...and it pissed me off. He had a cocker and I had my spyder. His was quiet and mine wasnt. A the time..I thought that it was just the name of the gun .Autococker sounded sooo cool.

the back block moment was awesome to me.

I liked the mags too.

But for one reason or another...the cocker was more visible to me.

People (cocker owners) always told me,"Closed bolt is better". I listened.

Having played a few games now witht the marker...I have this to say.

I don't care about the action any more.

I care about ease of use,(I.e. Simplicity) if I'm in the middle of a fire fight and I chop...I wand to be able to make one quick action,pull out my squeegie and swab out the inside, slap it back together and be ready to rock.

I hate...HATE having to carefully and laboriously unscrew the barrel...I have taken to poppoing out the entire bolt and shoving it in from that end through the gun out to the barrel.

I want to be able to break it down and put it back together in minutes.
And I don't want a huge hunk of metal draggin me down all day.

Also I want consistency.consistency .consistency.

So far my cocker was better than that first spyder...and yeah I will go compressed air.

But tiny and light?

Where else can it be found within reasonable price ranges?

And that gentlemen is why I think I'm going mag.

Cockers are great...I just don't think they are for me...
at least not in stock form...and thats all I can afford right now.

[SlartyBartFast]

I hate...HATE having to carefully and laboriously unscrew the barrel...I have taken to popping out the entire bolt and shoving it in from that end through the gun out to the barrel.

Well, that's not going to change if you get a TAC-One. And you can't easily pull the bolt out or access the breech to squeegee from that end.

But, if you setup the Lvl10 right, you shouldn't get any breaks...

[Swampthing777]

Rt Ule Custom

You are right my friend...

However, I was just on AGD's website and found that they are selling their RT ULE Custom for $340

Their specs sheet shows that it is internally almost identical to the TAC ONE and they offer the option of having twist lock barrels.

Joy!

THis gentlemen might verywell be the answer for me.

I can get the RT ULE custom... that gives me the valves I need plus I will be able to get a decent compressed air system all for roughly what it would have cos me to get the tac one.

This may be the perfect answer...

As you can see ive been bitten by the mag bug.

[dj89]

But for 340 or what ever it is you do not ge an i frame.