So - why not use an electromagnet for bolt control

[Lohman446]

Disclaimer - I state a lot of things in here as fact. They are my understandings of how things work, and they may very well be wrong. Feel free to correct me. THis may have been done, or may be being done in the past as well.. I don't know

Most blow forward markers fire the marker with air from behind the bolt, then use a force in front of the bolt (normally air) to reset the bolt. We are familar with the mag using a spring. The advantage of the air system is that the bolt does not have to overcome the constant spring tension that is there.

What if we appraoched this in a different direction? Why use spring or air, there has to be something else. What if we put constant regulated pressure behind the bolt - enough to propel our ball to 300FPS (or whatever). Now, rather than using air to control the bolt coming back, or a sear, the bolt is held in place by an electromagnet - either placed around, behind, or wherever in relation to the metal bolt or a piece of metal in the bolt. When you pull the trigger you interupt power to this magnet (or do they have electromagnets that work in reverse - ie power turns them off, lack of power turns themon) which allows the bolt to go forward. The magnet than turns back on, pulling the bolt back as the chamber refills.

Is it worth considering? The advantage I see is a possible increase in efficiency and a more relaible system with less moving parts than the air assisted ones. I also see the ability to keep the marker a true single tube design, as you only need air running to one spot.

Discussion?

[Chronobreak]

because people dont want an e-mag sized battery or larger

[Lohman446]

I thought about that as I posted. Do they make a "reverse" type electromagnet - defaults to operating as a magnet and then power turns it off? I don't know at all on that. And how much power would it take to pull a bolt back?

[BlackVCG]

So... basically whenever you're not shooting, the magnet is drawing current from the battery.

I see that is a very LOW battery life gun. Also, you'll have to use a pretty heavy material for the bolt inorder for it to have enough magnetism to get fast enough cycle rate out of the gun and therefore the magnet will have to use a lot of current to be able to cycle the bolt with its relatively large mass.

[Chronobreak]

So... basically whenever you're not shooting, the magnet is drawing current from the battery.

I see that is a very LOW battery life gun. Also, you'll have to use a pretty heavy material for the bolt inorder for it to have enough magnetism to get fast enough cycle rate out of the gun and therefore the magnet will have to use a lot of current to be able to cycle the bolt with its relatively large mass.

these are the issues ive head before being the main problems

i think it was brought up in tech before or deep blue

[SlartyBartFast]

Look at the size and power requirements for the Emag solenoid.

Now scale the whole thing up to consider the cycling requirements of a bolt. That's why it's a difficult concept to implement.

Now, there's that NPS electro-marker thing and Airsoft works on electric power only...

[Lohman446]

I take that as a no such thing as a reverse electro magnet. What I mean - no power magnetic; power applied - not magnetic

[TheTramp]

I don't think so as the Magnetic force is created by current running through the coil. No power, no current, no force.

[Lohman446]

Hmm... I wonder how much power it would take to hold the magnet back.. I don't see it being used for scenario games... nto fired a shot in XX hours and all of the sudden the bolt just jumps forward and you get a massive air leak because you dont have enough power to hold it... well theres another rambling idea that gets nowhere.

[VFX_Fenix]

What you're talking about is essencially turning the entire bolt assembly into a big selenoid. That could work, though as it stands now I don't believe it to be pratical with the current layout of the Automag Valve/Bolt system.

Now here's some food for thought (just came up with it actually)

If we assume that this new bolt arrangement would work like a 'noid, what's to say that you can't just use the 'noid to pull the bolt forward instead of relying on air pressure to drive the system.

Or if we still apply the blow forward design what if the bolt design changed and we got a longer stem on the center of the bolt with a 'noid mounted inside the valve such that the noid is just holding on to the guide rod in the center of the bolt when it's closed. The valve would need a make-over for this to work, a new bolt, new and creative wiring.

How about this, just use a 'noid to reset the bolt instead of a spring. Everything else would remain the same, relatively anyway. Sear would still catch the bolt and open the On/Off valve. With the ULT we could assume that a 9V can drive the sear tripper side and also drive the noid used to reset the bolt if it were made of... I dunno... Delrin or something lighter than the LX bolt.

[SlartyBartFast]

You'd probably be much better off using a stepper motor to move a bolt than a solenoid.

A high speed motor geared to the bolt could easily generate the required speed and force.

[VFX_Fenix]

yeah but that's noisier

[steveg]

So... basically whenever you're not shooting, the magnet is drawing current from the battery.

I see that is a very LOW battery life gun. Also, you'll have to use a pretty heavy material for the bolt inorder for it to have enough magnetism to get fast enough cycle rate out of the gun and therefore the magnet will have to use a lot of current to be able to cycle the bolt with its relatively large mass.

It's common in clutch/brake assemblies, used in rotating machinery to use a
permanent magnet to hold the brake disc and friction material together,
then use an electromagnet of opposite polarity to cancel the magnetic effect of the
permanent magnet.

Still going to take one heck of a battery though!

[mag88888]

i would consider this if the magnets functioned good for say.......5000 shots then i could recharge them. and i wouldnt want them to be really heavy. but hey, anyone can deal with a few more ounces.

[txaggie08]

I take that as a no such thing as a reverse electro magnet. What I mean - no power magnetic; power applied - not magnetic

you wouldnt need a reverse electomagnet, you would need a realy that would only stay open and delivering power when it have power. then when it lost it it would close