When is enough enough

[nippinout]

CoolHand, what is most bothersome to me is sportsmanship.

There should be no need to bonus-ball, wipe, or ramp in rec-ball. There is no money or prize on the line.

[CoolHand]

CoolHand, what is most bothersome to me is sportsmanship.

There should be no need to bonus-ball, wipe, or ramp in rec-ball. There is no money or prize on the line.

Now, that I totally agree with.

We usually take care of it sorta George Carlin vigilante style. (IE we ridicule them and generally make them miserable until they leave or start playing fair).

In recball there is no reason to cheat, or be a bad sport at all. I also don't think that a tournament is a good enough reason to cheat or be a poor sport either (once again, its not life or death). I still don't think it should happen, but more for honor than for fear of a breech of safety.

That is the one ironclad rule for my house team. I don't meddle with their affairs, other than to suggest the occasional switch of equipment (when I need to test something for a while), and to assure that they are good sports/honest players. Past that they do what they like.

I always watch any new guys like a hawk when they try out, because I just won't stand for any folks of questionable morals on a team I support. I'd rather they go a whole season and not win a single game, and do it honestly, than win everything they touch and be known cheaters.

[yakitori]

that still has nothing to do w/ the fact that they allow ramping guns. The whole argument was that ramping guns/ more than 15bps is too much and "unsafe" I totally disagree w/ that statement. That was the whole point of the discussion.

It still comes down the the Person behind the trigger. Just cause your gun is capable of 15 bps easily doenst mean that you are a bonus baller. Ive said it once and Ill say it again. You can bonus ball ppl w/ a mech semi. You can do it w/ a tippmann, a rental, or a stingray.

The gun is not responsible for overshooting.

[Lohman446]

that still has nothing to do w/ the fact that they allow ramping guns. The whole argument was that ramping guns/ more than 15bps is too much and "unsafe" I totally disagree w/ that statement. That was the whole point of the discussion.

I think you have simplified things far to much. It was an oversimplification that I encouraged in this thread through a failure to articulate what I actually meant. Let me try again. Ramping markers, velocity cheats, cheating in its various forms on the field, yelling at refs, yelling at other players, overshooting, the need to "mow" new players are all examples of a culture. Its a culture that was almost encouraged by players, sponsors, and tournament promotors. I did drum on the fact that we have gotten into a situation that we hope is safe rather than one that we have scientific evidence to indicate it is safe (ASTM Standards) but that is just a symptom of the cause. I've seen situations nearly escalate to physical violence on more than one occassion - both in the woods and on the speedball field, both playing recreationally and at more serious events (scenarios, tournaments, what have you).

What has happened that we let it get this far, when do we as players say that this attitude around paintball is enough? I've competed in martial arts, undoubtedly an adrenaline filled sport - I have never seen attitudes get to this level. Why do they in paintball? Why do we sit back and let it happen? When will we as players say enough is enough?

[yakitori]

I think you have simplified things far to much. It was an oversimplification that I encouraged in this thread through a failure to articulate what I actually meant. Let me try again. Ramping markers, velocity cheats, cheating in its various forms on the field, yelling at refs, yelling at other players, overshooting, the need to "mow" new players are all examples of a culture. Its a culture that was almost encouraged by players, sponsors, and tournament promotors. I did drum on the fact that we have gotten into a situation that we hope is safe rather than one that we have scientific evidence to indicate it is safe (ASTM Standards) but that is just a symptom of the cause. I've seen situations nearly escalate to physical violence on more than one occassion - both in the woods and on the speedball field, both playing recreationally and at more serious events (scenarios, tournaments, what have you).

What has happened that we let it get this far, when do we as players say that this attitude around paintball is enough? I've competed in martial arts, undoubtedly an adrenaline filled sport - I have never seen attitudes get to this level. Why do they in paintball? Why do we sit back and let it happen? When will we as players say enough is enough?

what do you expect? an honor system in paintball? Ppl cant even do that in the adult world. Its like driving in rush hour traffic. It a car they are cutting off, not a person behind the wheel. So, stop whining.

That is an aspect of the game that ppl overlook too. Whiners. They are as bad as wipers to me. Dont like it dont play. Nobody is forcing you to step onto the field w/ someone that plays tourneys. You do it because that is how we compete at that level. If you cant take it w/o crying about it, then you arent tough enough.

Paintballs dont hurt all that much. If you think they do, buy a chest protector and a headshield mask.

Yelling at the refs is not good, and corrective action should be taken for that.

Im not oversimplifying, you are nitpicking and presenting an argument from a whiners point of view.

Its not paintball man, its AMERICAN ATTITUDE. Its that way in every facet of society. There are a select few group of ppl that do the right things cause they know its right. Everyone else doesnt care.

[Lohman446]

That is an aspect of the game that ppl overlook too. Whiners. They are as bad as wipers to me. Dont like it dont play. Nobody is forcing you to step onto the field w/ someone that plays tourneys. You do it because that is how we compete at that level. If you cant take it w/o crying about it, then you arent tough enough.

This is the point... I have accepted it is part of the game and I play anyways. So do a lot of other people accept a lot of stuff that goes with paintball... why? Not you're a whiner, buckle down and get over it... I'm over it. I still call it as I see it, but I'm over really caring, I decided I liked the game that much. But why do we accept it? I have never had anybody that I have flat out told they cheated on the field tell me I was a whiner and to get over it. It happens often enough on the boards... are we trying to hide it? Just because I accept something does not mean I have to like it.


Edit:
Lets not let this turn into people thinking i have a better than you attitude. Things straight up. I have cheated on the field, I have intentionally played on, I have slide in to make sure there was not a hit on one side, I have wiped hits. I have gone on field with borderline marker set ups. I have intimidated refs. I have encouraged refs to make bad calls.

The fact that cheating happens is not what I am looking for. THe people I play with know me, I have flat out admitted cheating to them... I make no attempt to hide it. I don't do it in rec play, I play very calmly and very much differnetly in rec play then in tournaments. It is just as wrong. I know all the justifications for it, its still wrong. My question is not why cheat? or even what can be done about cheating? But why do we so readily accept it. Some of our most well known players are well known because they blatantly cheat. I likely cheat because I can cheat at tournaments, acknowledge it, and I don't loose anything in reputation from anyone. I'm sure I just took a hit on this board, but this board is not the normal "group" of players. Its the only place it seems that admitting I cheat at tournaments is going to harm my reputations. The rec players I play with don't care, they know I don't cheat against them. Why.. why do we nto care that people cheat at tournaments? We only seem to care if it affects our game against them...

[hitech]

I guess what I am trying to say, is that if you don't find the risk acceptable, do not play. Its not like anyone is forcing you to play paintball. Participation is not mandatory.

I'm getting tired of people telling me if I don't like it I don't have to play. Well, I don't like it, I'm going to continue playing and I'm going to continue complaining about it.

You CAN be injured with multiple rapid shots to the same spot. I've seen it happen, and it was with a pump. I can't imagine the same incident with a ramping "fullauto". So it is a safety issue. I still consider it an acceptable risk. However, if every player on the field had a ramping marker I might change my mind. Don't know yet, it hasn't happened to me.

Ramping markers are "cheats". Just because a few tournie circuits decided to allow cheats doesn't change them from being cheats. Can't catch 'em, just allow it in the rules. How absurd is that?

To answer the original question, when is enough enough? Now. We have passed that point. Being overshot in rec play is ridiculous. I have played since 1986 and had NEVER been overshot (including tournaments) until a few years ago. There is no excuse for overshooting. But some kids today think it's "fun". Absurd.

_______________________________________________


Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
Hitech is the man.... - Blennidae
The only Hitech Lubricant

[shartley]

I'm getting tired of people telling me if I don't like it I don't have to play. Well, I don't like it, I'm going to continue playing and I'm going to continue complaining about it.

You CAN be injured with multiple rapid shots to the same spot. I've seen it happen, and it was with a pump. I can't imagine the same incident with a ramping "fullauto". So it is a safety issue. I still consider it an acceptable risk. However, if every player on the field had a ramping marker I might change my mind. Don't know yet, it hasn't happened to me.

Ramping markers are "cheats". Just because a few tournie circuits decided to allow cheats doesn't change them from being cheats. Can't catch 'em, just allow it in the rules. How absurd is that?

To answer the original question, when is enough enough? Now. We have passed that point. Being overshot in rec play is ridiculous. I have played since 1986 and had NEVER been overshot (including tournaments) until a few years ago. There is no excuse for overshooting. But some kids today think it's "fun". Absurd.

I agree.

[hitech]

But why do we so readily accept it (cheating).

I don't. It's what keeps me from any interest in tournaments. It has caused me to not play at fields. I don't readily accept it.

[Lohman446]

I don't. It's what keeps me from any interest in tournaments. It has caused me to not play at fields. I don't readily accept it.

You have the answer for you, and its an ideal answer. I have left tournaments swearing I would never go back to a particular field, and found myself two months later playing there because some friends asked me to, in another tournament. Perhaps a lack of will power.... Why do you think that so many people seem to so readily accept it?

[yakitori]

This is the point... I have accepted it is part of the game and I play anyways. So do a lot of other people accept a lot of stuff that goes with paintball... why? Not you're a whiner, buckle down and get over it... I'm over it. I still call it as I see it, but I'm over really caring, I decided I liked the game that much. But why do we accept it? I have never had anybody that I have flat out told they cheated on the field tell me I was a whiner and to get over it. It happens often enough on the boards... are we trying to hide it? Just because I accept something does not mean I have to like it.


Edit:
Lets not let this turn into people thinking i have a better than you attitude. Things straight up. I have cheated on the field, I have intentionally played on, I have slide in to make sure there was not a hit on one side, I have wiped hits. I have gone on field with borderline marker set ups. I have intimidated refs. I have encouraged refs to make bad calls.

The fact that cheating happens is not what I am looking for. THe people I play with know me, I have flat out admitted cheating to them... I make no attempt to hide it. It is just as wrong. I know all the justifications for it, its still wrong. My question is not why cheat? or even what can be done about cheating? But why do we so readily accept it. Some of our most well known players are well known because they blatantly cheat.

Well. I dont wipe. I dont play on. I have mouthed refs for bad calls. I have bonus balled. I dont start physical confrontations at the field.

Im telling you. Its the American attitude. For example. A jr. high school near my home I see kids walking home in "clicks" They pick up stuff off the sidewalk and throw it in the street for cars to run over, just for fun? Why? Is it because its fun, vandalistic, getting away w/ something w/o punishment? Who knows. I do know that it happens in other countries though, but Americans tend to bend/break the rules of society, just because they can. They get a kick out of it.

Thats my experience anyway. Did I do dumb things when I was young? Sure I did.

If there is no real penalty other than a slap on the wrist, ppl will continue to cheat. They have accepted it in the sport because it is far too common.

Hell, if there was a simple solution or answer, we wouldnt be discussing it. It just exist, AND I learn to play w/ it, and deal w/ it. Americans are competative by nature.

It happens in ALL sports though, not just paintball. Boxing, Hockey, Football, Basketball, Baseball, volleyball,,,,,you name it, its been done.

[yakitori]

I think its more accepted becuase when good ppl that dont cheat play w/ cheaters, they find themselves is a position to cheat just to compete. That shouldnt be the case. What should happen is that cheating should be pointed out, call the ppl cheaters to their face. Make it obvious what they are doing to the refs, and the crowd. Everyone else will see it, and the cheaters will be labeled cheaters, instead of "man hes good" It will be "ya, he cheats" and it will be frowned upon by others.

everytime you go to the field, say "hey, hows it goin cheater boy" Or "did you learn any new cheating moves lately?" something to that effect. If they physically attack you, kick them in the balls, and then press charges on them for assult.

.

[Lohman446]

I played in a local tournament the other day with some outside refs brought in. The first game I got pulled for playing on with an obvious hit. I tried to explain to the ref that it wasn't obvious, because if I had known it was there I would have wiped it off... He pointed out the rule, that if iti was not to the back of my pack it was obvious. I watched another one of my players take a hit, continue shooting before getting to his bunker and looking. We took another penalty. I tried to complain to the ref, he just finished his move and then checked, pretty acceptable in most tournaments - he sited to me "the rules say if you are hit you may go to the nearest bunker, without shooting, and check yourself" I was annoyed. I considered it coming off the field and tried to think of what to say to the promotor... the best I could come up with is "those refs are enforcing the rules too well". I decided then that I really had no problem with these refs and kept my mouth shut. I listened to complaints for a week about these refs, and all day at the field... the tournament players were genuinely upset that they could not get away wtih cheating...

What does that say about today's tournament world? Just thought I would share.

[Lohman446]

I think its more accepted becuase when good ppl that dont cheat play w/ cheaters, they find themselves is a position to cheat just to compete. That shouldnt be the case. What should happen is that cheating should be pointed out, call the ppl cheaters to their face. Make it obvious what they are doing to the refs, and the crowd. Everyone else will see it, and the cheaters will be labeled cheaters, instead of "man hes good" It will be "ya, he cheats" and it will be frowned upon by others.

I don't see it happening though when you call someone a cheater. I did this repeatedly at one tournament - end result I would have been asked to leave had I not left when I did - I was basically told this by someone who was doing me a favor by letting me leave before a "situation" was created. I had the support of a few people, but I had the disdain of many. Look how it goes here, I have already heard something to the effect of thats how it is, if you don't like it don't play - but don't complain about it, people who "whine" about cheating are worse than the cheaters. Not my view, but do you see it expressed repeatedly in this thread?

[SlartyBartFast]

I'm getting tired of people telling me if I don't like it I don't have to play. Well, I don't like it, I'm going to continue playing and I'm going to continue complaining about it.

QFT.

Those that don't like following the rules and play straight up ball should be the ones told not to play.