Limits to maximum feed speed, and increasing?

[Lohman446]

Here's a thought, we have always said that we would limit markers by how fast we could feed them, and we have always come up with ideas to feed them faster (ok, not we... but someone).

It occured to me that there is a limit you can feed a paintball. Paintballs have to be reasonably fragile to break on target... how fast can we feed a paintball into a metal breech without it breaking when it feeds. We could feed marbles infinetely fast, because we wouldn't have this break issue - but we would either have to make paintballs thicker shelled and less fragile (hmm.. think of overshooting if we told everyone "you can shoot faster but there less likely to break). This does not seem like a good answer to me.

So it leaves us with an issue. I'm really not looking for a discussion on the advantages or disadvantages of high rates of fire, or the firing modes to attain them. Those are all discussions for elewhere. Assume, just for the interest of thi discussion, that the desire is to load more paint faster and there is a way to make use of it. There is a "terminal" velocity at which we can force feed paintballs without them becoming soup in the breech. Whats your opinion on what that is? What's your opinion on how we overcome this issue?

[trains are bad]

I already see this, people not wanting really brittle paint because it will break in thier halos. And the advantage of really brittle paint is not as great with the high ROF tradeoff.

Personally I think my warp and apache is easier on paint than a halo.

Plus I have eyes and LX.

[teufelhunden]

I already see this, people not wanting really brittle paint because it will break in thier halos. And the advantage of really brittle paint is not as great with the high ROF tradeoff.

Personally I think my warp and apache is easier on paint than a halo.

Plus I have eyes and LX.

..and you went ahead and answered a question that wasn't asked.

Lohman was not concerned with chopping, but paint breaking because of the force it hits the bottom of the breech with. Of course an Apache or an Evo will be easier on paint than a Halo.. because they both suck and feed 8 bps slower.

[SummaryJudgement]

Don't worry trains....I appreciated your input....

[Lohman446]

I appreciate all input, there thoughts... it just seems as of late if I don't specify questions and a line of discussion someone comes on and complains that were bashing Ions (sorry, couldn't resist). He's right though, I shot Kick'n paint for a long time, and when I switched to Halos I had to change grades of paint because it was too brittle.

[SlartyBartFast]

The ultimate limit is simple. The point at which paint usage becomes prohibitively expensive.

If paintball doesn't have retail outlets that allow occasional players to play for a reasonable cost, paintball will begin to die as a sport.

We've probably already crossed the cost line in many markets. We've also probably passed the tolerance of many new players on ROF.

But physical limitations? 'Pre-loaded' breech design could easily double the ROF. Chain feed could perhaps increase it further.

But to what end and why? Do you really want to spend more money playing the game? There is simply no valid reason for higher ROF. Certain tournaments have capped ROF, and in other play the devices/programming that allow for greater than 10-12 bps are not allowed.

[Lohman446]

But physical limitations? 'Pre-loaded' breech design could easily double the ROF.

Elaborate? I understand the concept of a chain system under gun, and even one that could work well with a pod style opening even... at least in concept. What about pre-loaded breeches? Prohibitvely expensive has already been passed for many people, the lesson learned is that for some others we are likely not near it... I don't think cost can be what we depend on to limit ROF - most of us will find ourselves costed out if this is the case.

[tyrion2323]

We could always re-design our breeches. The Omen uses a rubbery pad in the breech to stop balls from breaking. Perhaps this method could be adopted to other markers...

[Kevmaster]

as long as you have a bolt movng back and forth, you have a limit.

as long as you have to fill an air chamber and dump it (within reasonalbe constraints), you have a limit.


you've already got limiting factors.

[SlartyBartFast]

Elaborate? ... What about pre-loaded breeches?

Simply: More breeches than barrels. The loaders then only have to feed at a fraction of the firing rate. At least that's the idea.

Probably complex and expensive.

Honestly, if greater ROF is such a great thing, why isn't there more of a drive to use the various double barreled markers?

The really stupid thing about high ROF is that we've already surpassed the ROF of all but a few firearms.

[trains are bad]

..and you went ahead and answered a question that wasn't asked.

Lohman was not concerned with chopping, but paint breaking because of the force it hits the bottom of the breech with.

That's what I was talking about. People talk about not being able to use brittle paint in their super cranked XYZ boarded halos on WFO. Because it breaks in the halo or breech from the force of the feeding. Or in thier qloaders because it will break in the breech if the ball tube is not all the way full when you put a new pod on. I wouldn't know because I refuse to run a hopper that weighs more than my marker.

I said nothing about chopping in my post. You should'nt put words in someone's mouth and then accuse them of answering the wrong question. It makes you look pretty dumb from any angle.

[paullus99]

If there was a way to articulate the firing mechanism so that the marker fires as soon as the ball reaches the middle of the breech (a millisecond or two before it hits the bottom), you could theorectically have an unlimited ROF.....the techinical limitations are pretty steep and being able to fire that quickly even using electronics would be pretty difficult.

I guess your real limitation would be how quickly the valve mechanism would be able to recycle....as long as the paint never touches the bottom of the breach, you don't need to worry about brittle paint. Of course, thinking about it, you'd need another mechanism to hold the ball above the breech until you were ready to fire, then stop the paint above the breech again once you stop firing.

[SlartyBartFast]

If there was a way to articulate the firing mechanism so that the marker fires as soon as the ball reaches the middle of the breech (a millisecond or two before it hits the bottom), you could theorectically have an unlimited ROF.....

While this would limit IMPACT forces, it would not eliminate ACCELERATION forces. So the top ROF would not be limitless.

There's only so much pressure you can put on a paintball befor it bursts.

I still want to hear why higher ROF would be good for the game.

[KRAKMT]

as long as you have a bolt movng back and forth, you have a limit.

as long as you have to fill an air chamber and dump it (within reasonalbe constraints), you have a limit.


you've already got limiting factors.

but inovation is thinking outside the box-yes/no?

Instead of a bolt loading a ball into the breach(current design) The clip will be the chamber and hold the ball. The chamber will seal as the clip passes through- the valve releases to fire the ball. Like the old old Tippman full auto- was it the sl-68. Did the sl-68 use a bolt? I imagine it did.
Speed will be limited by the time it takes the ball to accelerate out of the clip.- We are headed somewhere in that direction with force feed loaders already.

As for limited by time it takes to fill and dump the valve- as the mag shows the less time to charge can be compensated by higherpressure. The only limit will be the energy necessary to operate. Might be electric completely.

Only limiting factor as has been mentioned is the strength of the paintball. A large amount of milliseconds are used by most markers waiting for the ball to be loaded. At about the rate of gravity. It theoretically should be possible reach those mythological numbers that dance around. as cycle per seconds.


Additionally, I think this is more academics then ethics.

"I'm really not looking for a discussion on the advantages or disadvantages of high rates of fire, or the firing modes to attain them. Those are all discussions for elewhere."

[TheTramp]

You'll still run into the main problems with using a clip/magazine/belt baced system in normal paintball applications: Number of balls held, ease of reloading, and cost of "magazines."

Sure a presorted magazine system can load extreamly quickly and if done correctly, be very soft on paint. Take a look at the Q Loader for example. It feeds more quickly than most tank valves can even recharge. You don't see to many people using them because they hold small amounts of paint, can't be reloaded on demand (without wasting paint), and have a high cost so you don't want to just toss them for later retreval.

I think we've already reached the "limit" of paint feeding speed because I really don't think people are going to give up the ease of a hopper style system. The trick now will be getting the top speed out of things like the Halo while at the same time somehow making it more gentle on paint.