Marketing a high end marker without ramping?

[SlartyBartFast]

Would I be able to sell the marker into the tournament community without ramping?

Of course not.

Anybody who competes seriously at any level would have to be an ignoramous of the highest level not to use everything allowed by the rules.

If you were racing cars, would you be dumb enough to use a smaller air restrictor plate than allowed? Would you forgo the use of Turbos if allowed?

Of course not.

[Automaggot68]

Then do it.

I rarely see people go past 15. They may "hit" 16... but they can't hit that everytime they start using the gun.

I can "hit" 18... without bounce/ramp etc. but I stay consistent around 16... I'm the only person I've seen who can shoot that fast.

You've also got one of the largest ego's around, blaze.

[Lohman446]

I asked the question if you could make a gun that was otherwise "better than any other marker" but did not have ramping would you be able to sell it to tournament players. I am going to use Slarty's answer because I think it represents a view point that, well extreme, may be held by others. For the record, at this point I belive a few players at the highest level will not use ramping for non-performance reasons (ASTM standards violation) but I also beleive they are few and far between.

Of course not.

Anybody who competes seriously at any level would have to be an ignoramous of the highest level not to use everything allowed by the rules.

If you were racing cars, would you be dumb enough to use a smaller air restrictor plate than allowed? Would you forgo the use of Turbos if allowed?

Of course not.

Let me say this now... I am in no way affiliated with AGD or Tom Kaye, nor do I presume to speak for them. We know or beleive this

1) A ramping marker is in CLEAR violation of ASTM standards
2) Violation of ASTM standards, without scientific testing to support that violation, puts us in severe jeopardy of civil negligence should (when) someone is hurt. Even if ramping was not directly at fault its existence on the marker responsible will be used to show negligence. Some of us also beleive that it may make us criminally negligent.
3) Tom Kaye is not judgement proof... he has a responsibility to his family to support them, as well as much more than when he started paintball some time ago. He has to be well aware of civil and criminal liabilities that he exposes himself to/
4) Selling a marker without ramping to the tournament crowd will present a unique challenge, perhaps insurmountable. Couple this with other marketing aspects and the risk to reward status of marketing towards tournament production is dismal. At least if one considers the possible negligence issues.

With that known, is it any surprise that AGD, and TK do not want to market to the tournament crowd? Why they did not bother being at Tampa, and may not be at large tournament gatherings. AGD has what could arguably be one of the best scenario markers available... is it any surprise that they have gone towards this market, which some indicate represents far more people than the tournament crowd? To me, contradictory ASTM standards and performance allowances in PSP rules (and possibly others later on) makes marketing to the tournament crowd a dangerous proposition. Can you market to just part of the tournament crowd, the NPPL crowd? Sure you can, but can you survive if you cut in half what is already a niche market?

[Blazestorm]

Another note, I could make it work, no matter what.

That's like trying to sell someone a gun they can't upgrade.

I don't understand what you're trying to achieve?

If I can't use it in PSP I doubt I'd buy it...

[Lohman446]

Another note, I could make it work, no matter what.

That's like trying to sell someone a gun they can't upgrade.

I understand what you are saying here, and your right, I am dealing in theoreticals, I am sure given enough time and money it could be upgraded to ramp, but I needed to theoretically say it could not be. Not realistically, but in theory

I don't understand what you're trying to achieve?

If I can't use it in PSP I doubt I'd buy it...

And that sentence, is what I was trying to acheive... for illustration purposes. For proof of theory. I beleived this was a strong sentiment out there, I just wanted to see if I was right. Thank you.

[SlartyBartFast]

I asked the question if you could make a gun that was otherwise "better than any other marker" but did not have ramping would you be able to sell it to tournament players.

Well that's the catch isn't it.

At 15bps, with ramping and eyes, there's no such thing as a marker that's "better than any other marker".

And ASTM? Most consumers don't know what CSA and UL testing means. The only reason they don't buy non-tested and non-conforming electronics is because it's against the law to sell non-conforming products.

Until the ASTM standards are enforced by law, they're of ZERO consequence to the average player.

[Conversekidz]

Then do it.

I rarely see people go past 15. They may "hit" 16... but they can't hit that everytime they start using the gun.

I can "hit" 18... without bounce/ramp etc. but I stay consistent around 16... I'm the only person I've seen who can shoot that fast.

Blaze I can only say one thing, you must be the ultimate pb player and the fastest person on the face of the planet when it comes to paintball.

i bow to you oh great master of the paintball!!!

[Lohman446]

And ASTM? Most consumers don't know what CSA and UL testing means. The only reason they don't buy non-tested and non-conforming electronics is because it's against the law to sell non-conforming products.

Until the ASTM standards are enforced by law, they're of ZERO consequence to the average player.

But to the manufacturer who could be sued for civil negligence (pretty easy to prove if you violated accepted industry standards)? I disagree with you about the player's lack of negligence, but lets agree to disagree on that for now, what about the manufacturer who knew, or should have known had due diligence been used, of the industry accepted standards?

[shartley]

I asked the question if you could make a gun that was otherwise "better than any other marker" but did not have ramping would you be able to sell it to tournament players. I am going to use Slarty's answer because I think it represents a view point that, well extreme, may be held by others. For the record, at this point I belive a few players at the highest level will not use ramping for non-performance reasons (ASTM standards violation) but I also beleive they are few and far between.

Let me say this now... I am in no way affiliated with AGD or Tom Kaye, nor do I presume to speak for them. We know or beleive this

1) A ramping marker is in CLEAR violation of ASTM standards
2) Violation of ASTM standards, without scientific testing to support that violation, puts us in severe jeopardy of civil negligence should (when) someone is hurt. Even if ramping was not directly at fault its existence on the marker responsible will be used to show negligence. Some of us also beleive that it may make us criminally negligent.
3) Tom Kaye is not judgement proof... he has a responsibility to his family to support them, as well as much more than when he started paintball some time ago. He has to be well aware of civil and criminal liabilities that he exposes himself to/
4) Selling a marker without ramping to the tournament crowd will present a unique challenge, perhaps insurmountable. Couple this with other marketing aspects and the risk to reward status of marketing towards tournament production is dismal. At least if one considers the possible negligence issues.

With that known, is it any surprise that AGD, and TK do not want to market to the tournament crowd? Why they did not bother being at Tampa, and may not be at large tournament gatherings. AGD has what could arguably be one of the best scenario markers available... is it any surprise that they have gone towards this market, which some indicate represents far more people than the tournament crowd? To me, contradictory ASTM standards and performance allowances in PSP rules (and possibly others later on) makes marketing to the tournament crowd a dangerous proposition. Can you market to just part of the tournament crowd, the NPPL crowd? Sure you can, but can you survive if you cut in half what is already a niche market?

[Lohman446]

Shartley, I agree with you in motivation, I think that AGD was at a point (whoever is in charge, from whisperings about patent ownership that seems in question) that they needed to decide to move hard into the tournament scene, perhaps wit a new design, perhaps with ramping, or try something new. To me the requirements of a scenario gun are different - mechanical for reliability, strong, and reasonably easy maintenance. Couple this with the X-valve and an anti-chop system (I hate LX btw) and you have an awesome performer. Its big drawback, nitro necessary. But its an argument I understand, I see a strong argument for it being one of the top scenario markers (even without the LX body). I may be way off one what scenario players want though, you would surely know better than I from your experience

[shartley]

Shartley, I agree with you in motivation, I think that AGD was at a point (whoever is in charge, from whisperings about patent ownership that seems in question) that they needed to decide to move hard into the tournament scene, perhaps wit a new design, perhaps with ramping, or try something new. To me the requirements of a scenario gun are different - mechanical for reliability, strong, and reasonably easy maintenance. Couple this with the X-valve and an anti-chop system (I hate LX btw) and you have an awesome performer. Its big drawback, nitro necessary. But its an argument I understand, I see a strong argument for it being one of the top scenario markers (even without the LX body). I may be way off one what scenario players want though, you would surely know better than I from your experience