Action Markers ceases Operation!

[Lohman446]

Anyone have links to the court decisions in WGP's favour?

I can't find them on Google.

AM's last knee jerk coward response was similar. Just because they threatened, doesn't mean you shut down.

They could still be blowing hot air. I thought the previous suits were for use of the Autococker or Cocker names.

Just an FYI based on my own information, an average Patent defense case starts at around $25,000 just to get in the door. Minor complexities can take it to $50,000 in the blink of an eye.

If you lose for whatever reason, on top of all previous expenses, you become liable for what ever damages the Plaintiff sees fit to ask for retroactive to the date of said Patent filing.

If you win....

You get nothing in most cases.

Slarty, you understand why I disagree with you, I don't see where they had a lot of options, not without further, sizeable investment into a company that after four years was not showing a profit. I think they were trying to sell anyways, if you read there letter, and approaching K2 may have been a catalyst to this last letter

[WARPED1]

AO= 26,0125
Ion Owners= 386
Shocker Owners= 8,591
Nerve Owners= 394
PBReview= 111,123
PBNation= 100kish?(temp banned for having an opinion and actually knowing something)
New England PB League= 1135
PBForum= 27,614
Equals 409,368 out of an average 10 million players a year, and some of those members belong to all those forums(like me). Even if every single person donated a dollar, that wouldn't be enough to even pay for a lawyer to take your phone call for 5 minutes.
You can write online words and articles all you want, it will not matter no matter what! An online petition will not matter. The only thing that really matters is money. Can you afford to battle the big companies? If not, close and move out of the way. It's to bad it's like that, but that's the way it is. No major company is going to listen to 400k whining internet 12 year olds(a lot of posters are only 12-`16 years old) complaining that WGP is a bully makes absolutely no difference, so quit your complaining!(you in the vernacular, not any one in particular).

[CoolHand]

Anyone have links to the court decisions in WGP's favour?

I can't find them on Google.

AM's last knee jerk coward response was similar. Just because they threatened, doesn't mean you shut down.

They could still be blowing hot air. I thought the previous suits were for use of the Autococker or Cocker names.

What you are not seeing is the other side of the coin.

What if they aren't just blowing smoke? What if they really do file suit?

You can't just say "Whoa! I see you're serious. Now, I quit."

'Cause by then it is too late. You are going to incur the cost of court, whether you wanted to fight or not. By then, you will loose, AND go bankrupt.

If you don't have the funds to fight, then you gotta assume that they will follow through, because once you are served, you have to fight. No do overs, no deals (that don't cost a lot of money anyway), and no way out.

Read the letter again, they are not talking a simple cease and desist here, they are talking full up payment of retroactive royalties, punitive damages, and all lawyer and court costs. That's enough money to break anyone's will fight (and leave a pile in their shorts), 'cause if you loose, its not just like you go out of business, you get to spend the entire rest of your life paying the bastards off. Not to mention all kinds of other nasty injunctions and limitations that could be levied on you at the sole discretion of the malice of the judge and opposing counsel.

Not for me, no thank you.

[teufelhunden]

You can't win a court battle if you can't afford the fee's.

A business like AM would have more than sufficient collateral to secure a loan.

[Lohman446]

A business like AM would have more than sufficient collateral to secure a loan.

Remember that I have pointed out that I think AM was on there way out anyways, this just may have sped things along. Take the situation

1) You have been in business about 4.5 years. You have made VERY minor inroads into the market place. You're flagship marker is selling, but not recouping all of its R&D. Worse yet your "cheap tournament grade marker" has just been undercut by a competitor. A competitor who had the advantage of a rule change in PSP that they may have helped develop.

2) You are not making a profit, the owners, and investors, have gone without profit for this time. You have accepted this as normal business and hoped it would get better. It has not yet. The Diadem did not sell remarkably new, and now you are looking at needing to "redevlop" to stay current.

3) You may be seeking to sell the business now, for other reasons, as such you seek buyers such as K2 and others.

4) K2 now sends you a letter threatening legal action (again).

5) You can fork out another 25-50K or more in legal fees to TRY to prove them wrong. You are right, but the legal system being what it is you may not win. If you do win you can continue business but are out the fees, if you loose you are out the legal fees, punitive damages, past damages, court costs, and your most admired (arguably) marker (the illussion) is now subject to licensing fees or not being produced.

What would you do?

[spantol]

And a business like K2 has more than enough cash on hand to drag the fight out long enough to burn through said loan.

Your insight into AM's financial situation is much appreciated, though.

A business like AM would have more than sufficient collateral to secure a loan.

[Doc Nickel]

[...]
Equals 409,368 out of an average 10 million players a year, and some of those members belong to all those forums(like me).

-I'd just like to add a bit of clarification, in that I'd wager you're off by perhaps as much as an order of magnitude.

For example, AO may have 26,000 names registered, but I'd bet the list of active members- those who read AO at least once a week, whether or not they post- is down in the hundreds.

Same with PBNation- they may well have a hundred thousand names registered, but again, I'd bet the number of active members is perhaps two or three thousand at best.

And, as you noted, many active types are members of more than one board. Last I checked, I think I'd registered with twenty or thirty myself.

Us 'online enthusiast' players are simply a tiny, tiny fraction of the playing public.

Doc.

[WARPED1]

-I'd just like to add a bit of clarification, in that I'd wager you're off by perhaps as much as an order of magnitude.

For example, AO may have 26,000 names registered, but I'd bet the list of active members- those who read AO at least once a week, whether or not they post- is down in the hundreds.

Same with PBNation- they may well have a hundred thousand names registered, but again, I'd bet the number of active members is perhaps two or three thousand at best.

And, as you noted, many active types are members of more than one board. Last I checked, I think I'd registered with twenty or thirty myself.

Us 'online enthusiast' players are simply a tiny, tiny fraction of the playing public.

Doc.

Actually, that was my point! Thanks for clarifying Doc! :)

[SlartyBartFast]

'Cause by then it is too late. You are going to incur the cost of court, whether you wanted to fight or not. By then, you will loose, AND go bankrupt.

Ceasing operations and going bankrupt amount to the same thing.

If you setup the company correctly, you could probably turn it into a shell with nothing in it if the case was brought to court.

If the alternative is shutting down, what have you got to lose?

[CoolHand]

Ceasing operations and going bankrupt amount to the same thing.

If you setup the company correctly, you could probably turn it into a shell with nothing in it if the case was brought to court.

If the alternative is shutting down, what have you got to lose?

Being held personally responsible for damages incurred.

Unless you have had a lawyer set up an ironclad corporation, chances are very good that any baddness that goes down, will end up getting pinned on you personally. A simple LLC will not save you from this kind of thing.

In that case, you've got the chance to loose everyting you own, not just your company.

And also, ceasing operation does not = bankrupt, as you can liquidate the assets of the business and recoupe a lot of the loss, if caught early enough. If you loose a judgment, and all you loose are the companies assets, you could still be out a great deal of money, which you would not have lost otherwise.

There is always something to loose.

[BigEvil]

Where does all of this madness end? It will get to the point that NO ONE will want to manufacture ANYTHING, let alone make any kind of capitol investments.

[shartley]

Where does all of this madness end? It will get to the point that NO ONE will want to manufacture ANYTHING, let alone make any kind of capitol investments.

[ultralight]

AO= 26,0125
Ion Owners= 386
Shocker Owners= 8,591
Nerve Owners= 394
PBReview= 111,123
PBNation= 100kish?(temp banned for having an opinion and actually knowing something)
New England PB League= 1135
PBForum= 27,614
Equals 409,368 out of an average 10 million players a year, and some of those members belong to all those forums(like me). Even if every single person donated a dollar, that wouldn't be enough to even pay for a lawyer to take your phone call for 5 minutes.
You can write online words and articles all you want, it will not matter no matter what! An online petition will not matter. The only thing that really matters is money. Can you afford to battle the big companies? If not, close and move out of the way. It's to bad it's like that, but that's the way it is. No major company is going to listen to 400k whining internet 12 year olds(a lot of posters are only 12-`16 years old) complaining that WGP is a bully makes absolutely no difference, so quit your complaining!(you in the vernacular, not any one in particular).

i don't believe he was talking about battling big companies in court. i took it as the more guerilla approach of getting everyone you know to personally boycott a particular company's products. also, just because there are only <400k paintballers on forums doesn't mean that there aren't many many more online, or even in contact with those that are online. everyone knows someone who know someone...etc. not that it will work or even that i support the idea. i was just pointing out the fact that the internet provides you with more communications power than you might think. and there is alot more to paintball online than just the forums.

[WARPED1]

loose.

Loose= not tight
Lose means you lost it.

[WARPED1]

i don't believe he was talking about battling big companies in court. i took it as the more guerilla approach of getting everyone you know to personally boycott a particular company's products. also, just because there are only <400k paintballers on forums doesn't mean that there aren't many many more online, or even in contact with those that are online. everyone knows someone who know someone...etc. not that it will work or even that i support the idea. i was just pointing out the fact that the internet provides you with more communications power than you might think. and there is alot more to paintball online than just the forums.

Ok, so around 400k people tell 5 more each, so now that's 2 million people out of 10 million.