Last Chance for Superbolts Update #3

[AGD]

SB owners,

We have examined, tested, theorized and tested to destruction superbolts all weekend. We think we have two different problems overlapping themselves. When this type of thing happens fixing one problem still makes it look like it's not right because the other problem keeps showing up.

The first problem was the overstressed plastic that boiling in hot water fixed by annealing. Since then we have not had an annealed bolt split down the side.

The second problem that continued to show up, was the end of the plastic tube breaking off in the first 500 shots. It seems that after 500 shots the bolts continue on with a normal life.

For any of you SB owners that have a low shot count bolt, we would like you to try the following fix. If it doesn't work we will be refunding everyone's money and putting the product on the back burner.

It appears that the wide front section of the plastic tube is catching on the bolt spring washer when it retracts after the shot. From our forensic evaluation of bolts that broke in the first few shots, they show scratch marks that end at the wide section and the crack. See the pic below.




We believe that after 500 shots the washer wears down this edge and the problem goes away because there is not enough edge left to catch on. The fix should be fairly simple, just sand down the edge and make it a gradual transition.

You can see the edge in the pic below.



If any of you could sand this edge,shoot the gun and report back here, it would help save this product. If you have a bolt at AGD that is waiting for the update please let us know if you would like us to either send it to you or test fire it here first. We just don't want to send you what looks like a used sleeve when we told you we would replace it. IF there are any of you that are fed up waiting and you bought the bolt from us please email [email protected] and we will arrange for a refund. If you bought it from a dealer and want a refund you have to coordinate through them.

We are very optimistic that this will solve the problem but we need some numbers to know if it really is the problem we think it is.

Thank you for your cooperation, you all know how much I personally depend on you.

AGD

[clockworkmiller]

Very nice Tom. Im proud to be a member of AO.

Look at me gettin all patriotic over this. Keep up the amazing work.

[JanStah]

Tom,

Why are the superbolts wider at the tip in the first place?

It seems obvious to me that something could repeatedly ride up on that ridge and cause enough stress over time to break it.


Why not just have them the same diameter all the way along like the old SS bolts?

Also, on the further issue of shelving the Superbolt idea if this doesnt work out; I beleive that in the past, AGD has been guilty of not creating products that customers want, but rather creating products that are BETTER. While this is admirable from an engineering standpoint, Better products do not necessarily a good business make. Your innovations, while leading the way in engineering and design, are not always what the customer wants.
However, The customers DO want the superbolts. Interchangeable bolts are something they're familar with. You can buy Delrin bolts for most other gun types. Its not too radical. Not very expensive. etc. etc.


I think it would be a mistake to shelve the superbolts for those reasons.

By all means get it fixed, working and reliable, but then start selling em and watch the cash roll in.

Good luck tom. Keep it up.

Jan.

[Dragoon]

I've already put 2000+ shots through my emag with SB. So I don't seem to have any problems with the bolt in terms of it splitting.

It does seem to brake paint on me though. They are not chops but in the barrel. What do you think of the idea posted by....I think it was Kila, about adding a foamie to the end of the SB and trimming it down so it's even with the end?

Thanks for listening to us.

Douglas

Edit:
Thanks Load.

[Load SM5]

Well Tom, accidentally, I'm your first tester. When I boiled my superbolt it swelled up and the sping would'nt move freely over the bolt. I had to sand down the end of the bolt so it would'nt catch, and the lip in question is'nt really even there anymore. There's only a slight bulge at the end of the bolt. I have nearly 1650 shots on my superbolt and it's still going strong. So far, the only wear is the wear I made with the sandpaper. I also polished off the sharp edges from my bolt spring. Hope this helps. If you need a pic of the bolt I'd be happy to send or post some.

And Dragoon - I have a homemade foamie superglued to the end of my bolt and had no breaks except for one of my own fault. Try a foamie out.

[Gambit1106]

Tom,

Should we worry about the sleeve becoming loose after we have boiled them? I myself have had this happen and have heard a few others mention this too. Any area for concern or type of correction? Otherwise I will be doing some sanding and shooting tonight. Would you like the test completed while dry firing or with paint? Thanks

Darren

[Load SM5]

Mine became loose enough to spin a bit but I could'nt pull it off. It never came off while firing. I put a few drop of glue at the base where the delrin meets the metal and it's been working fine.

[Minimag4me]

Tom,I dry fired my superbolt like 2-3000 times, no problems.

I boiled my superbolt but havent shot it yet so i will sand it a little and get back to you on wednesday or thursday

also what is a bolt spring washer?

[Lord Vader]

The bolt spring washer is the slight narrowing in the mainbody that allows the bolt to pass into the breach (sp?), but not the bolt spring, thus causing the bolt spring to recock the gun upon full compression of said spring (and the fact that all operating pressure was used in firing helps the bolt spring do it's job as well).

[Russ]

Huh? My Superbolt did not have the step near the end. Very odd. But then again, my SuperBolt hadn't broke.

Shouldn't they be the same diameter anyway? What is the advantage of the stepped design?

My insights in regards to the Delrin sleeve failure:

I believe that way too much heat is induced into the Delrin while it is being machined, which is what causes the brittleness, which leads to the failure. Annealing helps, but it would be better to not heat the Delrin up that much in the first place. Cutting speeds & feed rates of the machine tools need to be re-evaluated, along with the type of cutting tools being used, with focus on relief/clearance angles on the tooling. Coolant should also be utilized, if it isn't.

Another option would be to have the Delrin sleeves injection molded. I know molds aren't cheap, but in time they could pay for themselves.

I'll be quiet now.

[Aztec]

Tom-

I have been following this thread and others like it for some time now. I've modified the SB as you suggested, and I dry fired 1100 shots last night with my Emag. No problems whatsoever. This was very interesting to me as this is the first time I have used it. It changes the character of the gun completely. I like it. :-) I noticed that there is very little play between the SB and the bolt spring, where as the stock bolt had more play. Prior to sanding, the nose of the SB would catch a bit on the boltspring as I pressed down on it (with the spring on the bolt). Could this be a factor as well? If so, then the bolt may be forced to 'center itself' before passing through the end of the bolt spring. That would definately stress the delrin sleeve considerably. At any rate, after sanding the SB, it had similar spring to bolt clearance as the stock bolt. I think the SB will work fine provided the nose of the bolt is sanded, and shaved down to spec. Perhaps the Super Bolts can be saved if they all recieved a similar 'shaving' before they left the shop, so to speak. Or even a new batch of resized sleeves?

Alex.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I've never used my SB yet..my gun's been out of commission for a while..but i boiled the sucker anyway and not the sleeve spins like crazy..but..i emailed Marcia and told her that i wanted to send it in..i'm willing to let Tom and the crack AGD Tech department shoot the hell out of it before they send it back..if that's what it takes..that's what it takes..and maybe they'll be nice to me and glue a foamie to the front of it too...

[soilent green]

my super bolt cracked just like the picture after aBOUT 1200 shots

[steveg]

Tom you might not of noticed it yet but you have already
solved the superbolt problem GET RID OF THE DELRIN SLEEVE.
the reason for the bump at the top of the sleeve is because
the body was turned down to clear the spring Right?
The bump at the end is the actual .68" diameter of the normal bolt
The spring is located concentrically at the washer inside
the body. On the bolt the spring is located by a slightly
larger diameter on the ss part.

when inside the breech and barrel the bolt is located by
the front of the bolt, and guided somewhat by the powertube.

the solution. take a normal bolt turn down the body as you
do for the superbolt but leave the end at the .68' diameter.
drill out the stem as you do for the superbolt
or make the stem out of hard anodized aluminum.(Assuming
you can find the correct brazing metal to join aluminum and
stainless)
The delrin does not remove weight it adds it,AS it is only there
to replicate the original steel bolt profile

So what do you think

[Minimag4me]

uh Tom i just checked and my superbolt has no edge like you said and it is completely even throughout. It slides all through the body easily, should i still sand it down a little?