which devil mag option

[Lohman446]

I saw the devilsden website, so you cant get refunds even if you havent received the product? thats not cool .

Its a custom job done on time and materials. Chris starts getting all the materials together for you when you order, so he uses the money for that. As with any custom job you are responsible for the time and materials he has into it, and you are paying for the finished product. Yes you pay up front. This is normal under customer work - some of us were spoiled by AGDs X-mag system where you ordered on your word and then paid (or however the system went) or declined it later. Chris is doing this as any custom job is normally done and these practices are common, and just part of custom work. Having a firm price up front is not common in custom work, so be thankful for that, many custom shops would have charged more because of the unforeseen problems that have come up. Chris is not doing anything abnormal here.

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[nt2004]

I saw the devilsden website, so you cant get refunds even if you havent received the product? thats not cool .

dont even get me started on that. I asked for a refund because I never received a product or a time frame really, and he simply said no and started ignoring all my emails. Thats great business

[nt2004]

Its a custom job done on time and materials. Chris starts getting all the materials together for you when you order, so he uses the money for that. As with any custom job you are responsible for the time and materials he has into it, and you are paying for the finished product. Yes you pay up front. This is normal under customer work - some of us were spoiled by AGDs X-mag system where you ordered on your word and then paid (or however the system went) or declined it later. Chris is doing this as any custom job is normally done and these practices are common, and just part of custom work. Having a firm price up front is not common in custom work, so be thankful for that, many custom shops would have charged more because of the unforeseen problems that have come up. Chris is not doing anything abnormal here.

If he was smart, we would have treated this like a preorder list. You shoulnt charge people if you dont have a product and have no clue when you will get them made. Chris has so many processes out of his control and he knows that. So how could he possibly think what he is doing is a good idea?

[Lohman446]

If he was smart, we would have treated this like a preorder list. You shoulnt charge people if you dont have a product and have no clue when you will get them made. Chris has so many processes out of his control and he knows that. So how could he possibly think what he is doing is a good idea?

I agree that treating it like a preorder list would have been nice. However, lets look at it from Chris view point. He likely did not have the capital to self finance this (if you think he's making a lot per marker I don't expect your right). People wanted this, he was willing to do it, however it required payment in advance. Granted things have gone much worse than anyone expected, but I do not see any other way that Chris could have done this. When AGD did the X-mags... well they had the capital to finance, and knew they could sell them if some people backed out. Chris did not have this luxury, and had to do it this way. At least in my opinion

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[nt2004]

I agree that treating it like a preorder list would have been nice. However, lets look at it from Chris view point. He likely did not have the capital to self finance this (if you think he's making a lot per marker I don't expect your right). People wanted this, he was willing to do it, however it required payment in advance. Granted things have gone much worse than anyone expected, but I do not see any other way that Chris could have done this. When AGD did the X-mags... well they had the capital to finance, and knew they could sell them if some people backed out. Chris did not have this luxury, and had to do it this way. At least in my opinion

If he couldnt afford to take the risk of a preordered first batch, then he had no business making the frames in the first place. If you dont have the money and the ability to deal with numerous customers and give them real answers, then you shouldnt be in this business. He made some bad choices and he isnt dealing with them at all, he's ignoring them and that frustrates me much more than any wait time.

[SCpoloRicker]

Whining on one thread wasn't enough for you two?

[Lohman446]

If he couldnt afford to take the risk of a preordered first batch, then he had no business making the frames in the first place. If you dont have the money and the ability to deal with numerous customers and give them real answers, then you shouldnt be in this business. He made some bad choices and he isnt dealing with them at all, he's ignoring them and that frustrates me much more than any wait time.

Noone else was taking the risk to produce them without payment up front. Chris would not have started the attempt if there had been. While I agree the wait time has been frustrating it is something all of us should have expected (and few of us did) with a custom job of any type. I cannot speak for anyone else here, but Chris has kept open all lines of communication with me, even when I have been less than positive. Is the wait more than any of us, including Chris, every anticipated? Yes it has been, but I beleive Chris has made every reasonable effort to get these done for us. I understand your frustration, at least part of them... but I do make an effort to understand that Chris is doing everything he can, within reason, to get this done.

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[Asym]

However, lets look at it from Chris view point.

When Chris didn't hear anything from the machinest he wasn't too happy either and was fairly irate and even talked about making a trip up to see him. I understand there have been major problems throughout the process of making the Devilmag, but Chris is now doing the same things those suppliers did to him lack of communication. Yes I do understand it does take time away from building the mags to answer emails but if he would just give updates somewhere be it on his official thread here, his website or forums we wouldn't be wondering.

I'm on the list also and supposed to be in the first batch. I never heard anything from Chris that boards were on backorder, only people posting here on AO have said this so I have no idea if its true at all. So all we see are these rumors that people post on the forums. Last email I recieved was that the frames in the first batch were back from ano and were being cleaned up, which was about a week and a half ago.

[nt2004]

my point is that he should have only done one batch, and did it as a preorder. I'm guessing most of the cost in these frames lies in the pred II boards. He could have went through the whole machining process and worked out all the kinks with the machinists, etc. THen once everything was figured out machining wise and once all the frames were in, then he could have started approving payments and could have started receiving guns for anno and for eye drilling and all that good stuff. This would have been a better choice because if anyone decided to drop out, he'd only be stuck with a raw frame, no internals or gun or anything, just an easily sold raw frame. He wouldnt have had to pruchase anything in terms of boards or AGD parts until he knew he had the frames ready to be assembled and sold.

Chris seems like he was no where near being ready for such a large undertaking. He's gotten way too ahead of himself and now we have to pay for his mistakes? Sounds like bad business to me and I'm sick of it

[WARPED1]

dont even get me started on that. I asked for a refund because I never received a product or a time frame really, and he simply said no and started ignoring all my emails. Thats great business

Call the better business bereau, thats bad. As nice a guy as Chris was. You canmnot do business like that!







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[nt2004]

i should, this is ridiculous

[PaintDiddy]

There are definately 2 sides to an arguement here. Yes, we all know all about how custom work is such a royal pain in the butt. But theres also such a thing as good business manners too. I dont doubt hes a great guy, and Im sure the finished product is great. But as a good business gesture, it would be nice that those that ordered annoed/ unannoed bolt on frames (you know the things that aren't made custom to a specific person), be issued their money back so people can move on. Chris can easily resell them to anyone else.

I guess he is covered by that disclaimer at the bottom of his website, but I think it would be a good business gesture and it would solve this fiasco between customer and small business owner. If that devilmag rips, which Im sure it does and from the field reports, it sounds like it does, chris will sell them out fast anyway when they are produced.

[frop]

Call the better business bereau, thats bad. As nice a guy as Chris was. You canmnot do business like that!

What's BBB gonna do? Tell him to fix it or they'll call him a bad boy?

[teufelhunden]

I don't see the DevilMag as being custom work. When one can go onto a website, and in 4 clicks order a DevilMag, it isn't custom. Custom would've been one guy approaching Chris and saying "hey, put this board in this frame with these eyes".. not Chris coming to the market saying "Hey, look what I have, give me money and I'll give you one"

[WARPED1]

What's BBB gonna do? Tell him to fix it or they'll call him a bad boy?

Make him refund money then close him down for bad business...............

I don't see the DevilMag as being custom work. When one can go onto a website, and in 4 clicks order a DevilMag, it isn't custom. Custom would've been one guy approaching Chris and saying "hey, put this board in this frame with these eyes".. not Chris coming to the market saying "Hey, look what I have, give me money and I'll give you one"

You are correct, Devilsden is not custom, he's a small business. Now Doc, is a custom shop, or Punishers Customs.