Mags in Tournaments

[SlartyBartFast]

This is a valid point, however even when the E-Mag was making its rounds as a Tourney gun on an AGD team it still wasn't a very popular gun compaired to the Angel/Trix/Timmy.

Could it be because AGD is a small company with limited resources and money and they sponsored only one team, where as Angels/Timmies/Trixes are big companies that sponsor multiple teams AND are guns that are cloned/cosmetically altered by multiple other companies that also sponsor teams?

Then, all the fanboys and fashion followers buy what their heros are playing with ehich means more of those markers in the open market as well.

How many Lamborginis do you see on the road or in races? Precious few.

Guess they just aren't good enough.

Should Lamborgini sponsor race teams or lower their standards to Pontiac levels to sell more cars and be more "popular"?

Popularity does NOT equal capability. Two separate things with no connection.

[SlartyBartFast]

lev 10 is a nice thing to have but given the choice i would choose break beams.

THAT at least is a valid reason.

But, it's a HUGE leap from there to say that anything isn't suitable for tournament play or can't keep up because it doesn't have them.

Precious little in paintball equipment is absolute. The marker, tank, paint, and player are all a package. Some equipment MAY give you a better chance at attaining some mythical level of performance, but it won't give it to you.

A great player with a mediocre setup will beat a mediocre player with an exceptional setup everytime.

A great player with an exceptional setup against a great player with a slightly less exceptional setup is more of a coin toss. The 20/80 rule. The last 20% of improvement takes 80% of the effort.

Equipment, no matter how you slice it IMO, does not make up 80% of the effort of being a top package.

[Southparkrocks]

Could it be because AGD is a small company with limited resources and money and they sponsored only one team, where as Angels/Timmies/Trixes are big companies that sponsor multiple teams AND are guns that are cloned/cosmetically altered by multiple other companies that also sponsor teams?

Then, all the fanboys and fashion followers buy what their heros are playing with ehich means more of those markers in the open market as well.

How many Lamborginis do you see on the road or in races? Precious few.

Guess they just aren't good enough.

Should Lamborgini sponsor race teams or lower their standards to Pontiac levels to sell more cars and be more "popular"?

Popularity does NOT equal capability. Two separate things with no connection.

Its AGDs own fault that they have limited resources and sponsor one team, they were on top of the world just a couple of years ago along with cockers. Those angels, timmies and trixes started out as the minority, and now their the majority. Lamborgini still gets a lot of money and comes up with new products, AGD hasn't come up with anything new in awhile and is stagnant.

[ICOM]

Nicely said nick and tuna. I have had problems with my xmag with chopping etc and almost got rid of it but i tried other markers and i still enjoy my xmag over any other gun atm. Tuna has helped me countless times to get my gun in working order and now i love it even more. A Quality Product which i am proud to shoot.

[SlartyBartFast]

Its AGDs own fault that they have limited resources and sponsor one team, they were on top of the world just a couple of years ago along with cockers. Those angels, timmies and trixes started out as the minority, and now their the majority.

0.1% of a huge market is better than 50% of a small market.

There's no "fault".

AGD lost out on:

1 - Marketing. Gotta hand WGP the win on marketing and hype.
2 - Luck. WGP could have had their backsides handed to them on a platter by Glenn Palmer if paintball wasn't such a friendly industry in the beginning.
3 - Lack of focus. Tom is a genius. Unfortunately he's a genius with ADD and control issues. You can't be the top in one field while you're being great in many fields. Your interests can't grow by themselves if you won't relinquish some control.

But again, why do you need to be big to be good? The more cars Mercedes puts on the road the worse they seem to be....

[Dayspring]

Tom surendered his position in paintball to work on the military contract that ended up in the FN303 Less-Than-Lethal gun.

Tough call.

[SlartyBartFast]

Tom surendered his position in paintball to work on the military contract that ended up in the FN303 Less-Than-Lethal gun.

Tough call.

Dumb call.

Tom could have licensed the Automag, or otherwise put AGD under trusteeship while he focussed on something else. There was absolutely no valid business reason to allow the paintball business to completely stagnate in his absence.

But like other geniuses (Steve Jobs is a good example) he couldn't let go of his creation and watch it grow by itself. While Steve Jobs did let go, as soon as he was back he quickly reigned everything back to centralised control.

I hope a give no offense as I know TK only through his posts on AO, publicly known history, and his website.

But wow, I'm going off-topic....

[Muzikman]

But you have to remember that AGD has always been a small company. And to license the Mag technology wouldn't have helped advance AGD. They spent something like 3 solid years developing the FN303 (in paintball time, that is a decade) and because of this they had no man power for R&D in the paintball world. Look at all the stuff AGD came out with in 2001...it was all a little too late.

AGD has been around for something close to 15 years.

Developed in the first 5 years:
PMI Masks
Sights
Sheridan Valves
Automag
Carbon Fiber Grip frame
Powerfeed (which for years was the feed style of choice)
Minimag
Sydarm

Developed in the second 5 years:
Automag RT

Developed in the third 5 years:
Emag
Flatline (3000 & 4500)
Warp
Level 10
Xmag
ULE Body
X-Valve
ULE Trigger

What are they develping for the next 5 years?

Pro Classic (a stainless steel bodied, stainless steel valve with a carbon fiber grip frame)...hmm, sounds like the gun they developed back in 1991.

[SlartyBartFast]

Pro Classic (a stainless steel bodied, stainless steel valve with a carbon fiber grip frame)...hmm, sounds like the gun they developed back in 1991.

Sounds much the same as Tippmann or the venerable Cocker products from WGP.

[Muzikman]

Well, the Tippmann I agree with...but with WGP, even the POS cockers they have out now (Trilogy, etc), they are better than the stock cockers that came out between 1994-2000, they were complete crap and required so many mods to get them to work. I think this is why cockers always had the bad rep of never working.

[SpitFire1299]

Heres some facts-

"The air blast behind the ball after the bolt"-

60 psi for the mag and the impulse
95 pis for angel
45 for matrix (Lowest AGD Measured)
110 for autococker

Low pressure ball acceleration, commonly found in the low pressure guns by default. Best config. for fragile paint. Uses more air because the ball takes longer to accelerate. Our testing is showing that low pressure acceleration is less consistent in velocity. Longer bolt close time takes away from ball drop time.

Medium pressure ball acceleration, commonly found in markers with 4-600 psi working pressure. This still falls in the range considered to be good on fragile paint but not the best. Much better on efficiency is a big bonus. Shorter bolt close time allows for more reliable high firing rates. Faster ball acceleration is showing more consistency in testing.

My Conclusion-
Mags can be used in tournaments, and can use any kind of paint. I dont see why this is even discussed since its kind of obvious that mags can *Pretty much do anything any gun can do.

Level 10 vs. Level 7+eyes?

Either way.. there both going to be hitting the ball at 60psi.. but there are other topics discussing this.

[SlartyBartFast]

Well, the Tippmann I agree with...but with WGP, even the POS cockers they have out now (Trilogy, etc), they are better than the stock cockers that came out between 1994-2000, they were complete crap and required so many mods to get them to work. I think this is why cockers always had the bad rep of never working.

But why is development a new product such a big goal for so many of the point on which they judge a product?

The original Automag68 needed little improvement. All the mods that aftermarket companies offered were placebos and did nothing to improve the marker.

Cocker's on the other hand needed good quality parts after market.

Why is failure to change a good product a bad thing?

Change != good.
Popular != good.
Big company != good.

[Lohman446]

My Conclusion-
Mags can be used in tournaments, and can use any kind of paint.

Your conclusion is flawed in practice... been there

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=181106

EDIT: Note that Zacks X-mag was using level 10 with eyes and having the same issues

[SlartyBartFast]

Either way.. there both going to be hitting the ball at 60psi.. but there are other topics discussing this.

Need to look at some other facts. The acceleration of the bolt when the trigger is released.

TK found that it wasn't necesarily the speed of the bolt breaking the chambered round that was the problem but the impact of the high velocity bolt on the lower postion of the next ball in the stack (and the ironic conclusion that much of what was given as proof of blowback was actually perhaps bobble caused by the bolt).

So no. Mags can't use any paint. With a lvl10 you shoul d be able to tune it so that brittle paint will survive...

[hitech]