Great, more morons to ruin the sport. (world cup story)

[Lohman446]

everyone stop arguing. This is just what a jackass stunt like that is suppose to do, create a riot and havoc among the paintball community. Play paintball, by the rules you know are right. If something happens, apologize, and if you are gonna do something stupid, dont do it. No one cares about legalities, just play, have fun and enjoy the sport while it lasts

I'm interested, and as Muze mentioned, I don't see very many people arguing. We are discussing various different ideas on how this could / should be handled coming from a variety of different backgrounds.

[vonort]

Bill question for you. When Lasoya knocked the guy out a few years back. Would you consider that an assault? Since the paintgun has no intent of harm. 12 shots to the head would mean ther is still 0 chance of injury?

Just curious

[Lohman446]

Bill question for you. When Lasoya knocked the guy out a few years back. Would you consider that an assault? Since the paintgun has no intent of harm. 12 shots to the head would mean ther is still 0 chance of injury?

Just curious

Not Bill, but I figure to take a stab at this one. No - its not assault, there is no intent. May it be negligence in the uncaring? That question gets a little more blurred as no intent is required, just failure to take reasonable steps to avoid injury.

[vonort]

Good point Lohman. But what I'm refferring to his point that if 1 shot is not assualt then 50 isn't. But if 12 shots to the head can knock someone out. Obviously there is a point that harm can be done by shooting someone with a paintball. And I agree the intent has too be there. If you are unloading on Refs. You are doing it intentionally. What Lasoya did may not of been intenitional,, just stupid. (lol).. But it does support the fact that there is a line at which point you ARE doing harm.

[Lohman446]

Good point Lohman. But what I'm refferring to his point that if 1 shot is not assualt then 50 isn't. But if 12 shots to the head can knock someone out. Obviously there is a point that harm can be done by shooting someone with a paintball. And I agree the intent has too be there. If you are unloading on Refs. You are doing it intentionally. What Lasoya did may not of been intenitional,, just stupid. (lol).. But it does support the fact that there is a line at which point you ARE doing harm.

The point becomes at what point is what you are doing not part of the game, or an incidental part (ie a ref getting hit under normal circumstances)?

[lopxtc]

But how do you define the line in which you cross normal play with obvious harm ...

Truthfully I think this is why the idea of paintball as a major sport (ie NFL, NBA, etc, etc, etc) is still a long way off. Its easy in other sports to define what is considered a "foul" when interacting with another player, but this is almost impossible in paintball. Slide tackling a person from behind, face masking a player, charging, "bean balls" ... all are easy to define as something that is outside the normal course of play. But in paintball shooting is the course of play, and when you have markers that spit out as many rounds as they do in a flick of a finger tip you just cannot say what is outside of the normal course of play.

And until some kind of centralized reffing system comes into play I cant see many things getting better. To many kid refs, and adult refs, are afraid to make a call against someone because they might get a verbal barage or even a physical barage in return. And too many of the high-end, high-speed players have become so used to this that they almost instinctively (spelling?) start yelling at refs even on obvious infractions of the rules.

Aaron

[Muzikman]

I agree with all that. For a player it might be harder to nail down the intent to cause harm, but for a ref it is easy. If you continue to shoot a ref, you have intended on hitting him and for no better reason than to harm him as he is not your intended target per the rules of the game. If you mistakenly hit a ref because he is checking someone, or pops out from behind a bunker that is one thing.

I think that laying on a guy when you know he has already been eliminated and you know it could be ".ntent to harm". For what other reason would you be shooting at him. Again, mistakenly hitting someone while they are walking off the field is one thing.

I think the major leagues need to set an over shooting rule if they do not currently already have one. Let's use the nice round number of 15. I think after 15 hits, you know the guys is out, he's not going to be able to wipe either. Now obviously you are not going to sit there and count each hit, but an experianced player and ref should be able to pick out over shooting.

[vonort]

The point becomes at what point is what you are doing not part of the game, or an incidental part (ie a ref getting hit under normal circumstances)?

I agree. Without witnessing the action in this case. Its hard too say. It very much sounds like it was over the line. And in all actuality I think its a case by case kind of situation.

With the high end equipment its hard too say what is overshooting. I just got back from a scenario event. Other side had our base so we did a hot insertion. I was about the 5th guy in. I got lit up.. It didn't bother me I knew i was going into a hornets nest. Now if I was out in the feild and got hit that many times from someone.. I would of been yelling for overshooting. So a lot of times it depends on the situation. But to intentionally go after the refs is a NO NO in any sport.

[mar]

Well, here ya go.

deadly weapon n. any weapon which can kill. This includes not only weapons which are intended to do harm like a gun or knife, but also blunt instruments like clubs, baseball bats, monkey wrenches, an automobile or any object which actually causes death. This becomes important when trying to prove criminal charges brought for assault with a deadly weapon. In a few 1990s cases courts have found rocks and even penises of AIDS sufferers as "deadly weapons."

Assult
NOUN:
A violent physical or verbal attack.
An unlawful threat or attempt to do bodily injury to another.
The act or an instance of unlawfully threatening or attempting to injure another.

Even if you are a willing perticipent in the game, if the persons intent is to hurt you, then it's assult. And I see no reason why a paintball gun would not be a deadly weapon.

If a baseball player went after another player with a baseball bat and beat him with it. I am sure they that player could be charged with assult with a deadly weapon.

I think Intent is the key.

totally agree.

[SummaryJudgement]

If you are refering to me then I am sorry. I tried my best to live up to your internet forum expectations but I have failed. Woe is me.....what am I ever going to do.

If you are not refering to me then ignore me, live long and prosper.

Yeah, lol, sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring to the situation as a whole, not what you had to say.

[Earthy]

In terms of what consistutes acceptable behaviour in a sport (amateur or professional) , it's my understanding that ANY contact that is deemed excessive can be legally considered assault. Look what has happened in the NHL when Todd Bertuzzi hit Steve Moore from behind. He was tried in a court of law and possibly faced 18 months in jail, and this is a sport that includes physical contact. Also when players play paintball they sign waviers agreeing that they will get hit as a matter of course, and that they agree to follow the field's rules. To my knowledge there are no fields that include overshooting or ref sniping as part of this agreement. Unfortunately the industry is encouraging outrageous behaviour and fosters a "bad boy" attitude. I am amazed that anyone would considered defending such actioins; however, if this team had a reputation for behaving this way then my question is why were they allowed to play in the first place. Having the $$ for the enterance fee does not give anyone the RIGHT to play, it is a PRIVILEGE. Players can exert a great amount of pressure on event organizers and field owners by refusing to play with those with unacceptable attitudes or reputations. As players the buck STARTS with us.

Sorry, for the tirade. I'll get down off my soapbox now.

[BD_Paintball]

my friend has played with Psycho Circus a few times. i just want to see the video

[Beemer]

Play paintball, by the rules you know are right.

It goes a little further then that. Play by the rules and the current SAFETY Standards that 47 people in the industry put down in the form of ASTM Standards. ie 1 shot 1 pull. Of course you know that and play by that Right?

No one cares about legalities, just play, have fun and enjoy the sport while it lasts

Doesnt seem like they care about your Safety either. Enjoy while it lasts.

Hey Muz, where did ya come up with 15 shots on a gog. ASTM tests at 8. Dye[Proto] says they test at twice the standard that would be 16 if it passes. I have had lenses fail with 1 shot at more then 15ft.[cracked] no matter how small its a Fail.

So if Im the Ref in this scenario, how do you keep me from or talk me out of filing charges?

___________

[hitech]

I think the point that Bill is trying to make that everyone is missing is how can shooting a properly protected person with paintballs (any amount) cause injury? If it can/does, then the game as we know it causes injury.

Since "we" don't consider it dangerous (does not cause injury) to shoot another properly protected person with paintballs (any amount), their intent was not to cause injury. Rather, it was to cause anger (i.e. piss them off).

Shooting in a crowd of unprotected persons is reckless...

[Lohman446]

I think the point that Bill is trying to make that everyone is missing is how can shooting a properly protected person with paintballs (any amount) cause injury? If it can/does, then the game as we know it causes injury.

Since "we" don't consider it dangerous (does not cause injury) to shoot another properly protected person with paintballs (any amount), their intent was not to cause injury. Rather, it was to cause anger (i.e. piss them off).

Shooting in a crowd of unprotected persons is reckless...

In full football gear tackle someone who is part of the ungoing game - no big deal.

Now go tackle the kicker trying to warm up off the playing field with malicious intent - big difference...

Or, tackle the ref, intentionally on the field