RPG ULE Bolt

[warbeak2099]

Green tea has to be one of the greatest drinks on the planet. Of course I only drink iced green tea, but hey it's still mad healthy and tasty too. Woot woot for iced green tea w/ ginseng and honey!

Anyhoo, you been working on this a while Rogue. You might want to talk to Jay since he's dropped the project. Maybe you can work with him to churn this out a little faster.

[latches109]

[RogueFactor]

Anyhoo, you been working on this a while Rogue. You might want to talk to Jay since he's dropped the project. Maybe you can work with him to churn this out a little faster.

I dont think Jay would be much help, since I started this project before he posted his first idea. From his statements in his post, he never made it past the idea "what if" stage... so I dont know if he will be much help being that I am already on prototype #2, and moving onto #3.

Thanks though warbeak, but I am not looking for speed. Id rather take my time and do it myself. Ive already spoken with a few people I trust before the Summer of 05, when undertaking this project. Many of my projects are things that arent posted---this is just an exception.

[hardr0ck68]

Actually, slade is proving it using science and facts. You are trying to prove your point using speculation and anecdotal evidence. Neither of those are reliable sources for information. Your entire posts basically illustrate the fact that you are ignorant and don't have a clue about paintball technology. Using physics IS the right way to explain this. You are the one cluttering up this thread with conjecture. Please leave, there are intelligent people here who wish to discuss the matter in an intelligent and scientific way. Why don't you go and teach intelligent design to a biology class somewhere, you ignorant neanderthal.

oh well how about this if were talking physics and flow and whatnot. If you have air at a predetermined pressure then it will move with a speed that is generally determined by pressure and area. So if you open up the area (like a hogged out bolt) your pressure drops at that point (may seem good if you buy into the LP hype) but now the velocity at which the air is moving has been lowered; effect on efficancy? genreally unknown because of variables throughout the system. Another good place that you may or maynot care about to see this in action is in most 2 stroke's the exaust is bulbous at a point; when the exausting gasses reach that point (which has more "flow" ) the gases slow way down. My point was and is the simplest method is to test the two designs and see raises the velocity, why? because with all other factors remaining the same (pressure and volume in the dump chamber the principal ones to worry about here) the bolt producing the higher velocity is going to be the most efficent.

I will say that the old timers never really took in to consideration the weight differance and its effect on the system just flow and velocity of the air (which was never measured, just a trial and error test to see what bolt accelerated the paint most with the same amount of air), but when all bolts were mad of aluminum the weight differance an its effect on other parts of the system were percieved as minimal. This is espacally true for a cocker where the bolt movement and hammer are independant while gas is released.


and guess what i still dont care about you enough to spell check....so yeah my quasi-physics are better than yours (notice no one has yet to produce equasions and run real number through them....so were all tools really)

[GT]

I dont think Jay would be much help, since I started this project before he posted his first idea. From his statements in his post, he never made it past the idea "what if" stage... so I dont know if he will be much help being that I am already on prototype #2, and moving onto #3.

Thanks though warbeak, but I am not looking for speed. Id rather take my time and do it myself. Ive already spoken with a few people I trust before the Summer of 05, when undertaking this project. Many of my projects are things that arent posted---this is just an exception.

[RRfireblade]

I dont think Jay would be much help, since I started this project before he posted his first idea. From his statements in his post, he never made it past the idea "what if" stage... so I dont know if he will be much help being that I am already on prototype #2, and moving onto #3.

When that post was made I had already been testing the final prototype for a couple months somethign like 50K+ cycles in my fully E-Pneumatic Xmag , which it's still in BTW, but it looks like your doing just fine on your own.

Good luck with it, I'm sure you'll do a great job.

[RogueFactor]

When that post was made I had already been testing the final prototype for a couple months somethign like 50K+ cycles in my fully E-Pneumatic Xmag , which it's still in BTW, but it looks like your doing just fine on your own.

Good luck with it, I'm sure you'll do a great job.

Thanks Jay.

We must be thinking of two different projects. I remember your late August post on the bolt idea, which I kept a copy of since I was already working with my first prototype when you made the post. It sounded like you hadnt made an attempt yet and that it was "just a thought".



"Thats why I said this was "just a thought". After some initial testing I was pretty excited at what could be gained and figured there could be some interest but is that enough to make it worth the attempt? Hard to say."

[RRfireblade]

"Thought" was pretty much in regards to the commitment of production vs. interest/gain primarily. That quoted statement refers to the 'initial' testing that prompted further development. PTP made an aftermarket Mag bolt years ago so I'm quite aware of the complexities of such a production item. But I've never been huge L10 fan and always thought of it as more of a band-aid in regards to an answer for chop free high ROF electro performance. It doesn't compare to 'eyes' IMO at all and would much rather gain other potentail benefits from the bolt system. The idea actually stemmed from a proto pneumatic return Mag valve system I had an idea for and while tinkering noticed some other practical benefits from a redsigned bolt. There's more to it than I eluded to in that thread , I wasn't prepared to give away to much info as there were certain possible legal issues that needed to be kept quiet and may still need to. In the end I just needed a break from paintball on the whole (to many companies, to many projects) and unfortunately that might have killed a few Mag products at least for a little while.

Anywho....

[snoopay700]

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the level 10 bolt only 1 oz,, which is the same as the rpg bolt?

[RogueFactor]

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the level 10 bolt only 1 oz,, which is the same as the rpg bolt?

The Level 10 bolt is 1.3 oz. The RPG ULE Bolt is sub-1.0 oz.

[snoopay700]

The Level 10 bolt is 1.3 oz. The RPG ULE Bolt is sub-1.0 oz.

Oh, well excuse me, haha. I just herd tom kaye say in an interview that it was 1 ounce.

[PnueMagger]

As a future aerospace/mechanical engineer (one more semester ) with heavy backrounds in thermodynamic fluid internal/external flow, I must say this is the best (most entertaining) thread I've ever read. Slade, you raise many interesting points about testing the bolts especially in autocockers, and you are correct, there are best bolts for certain setups and best bolts for other setups. The venturi is not always best, but can have advantages in situatations. Personally I prefer it. There is always a bit of triage (sp?) when choosing a "best whatever" in anything. That's life. Hardrock68...you are sooo close to the theory of venturi flow [esp. in bolts] it's crazy. Hint: think laminar flow and the benefits of it versus open flow impacting a sphere (paintball).

PS - rougue, it looks good. There a ton of factors to consider if your shooting for best efficiency, but your a pro at this stuff so you can handle it. And i love your stuff man What is your profession or are you an AGD tech or something. LOL-Can you make me a tech when I graduate? I'll be like, "Oh, it's cool Mr AGD, Rogue said I work here now." [sits down in CEO's chair]

My two cents: I will not make a "best bolt is this" comment (because there is no right answer) but the best thing you can do to increase efieciency in either method you chose to employ is try to get the BEST interior surface finish possible. You'll reduce the turblence envelope thickness by doing this and get better LAMINAR Flow Rate. Often underrated/overlooked: radius all entrances, exits, openings curves, etc - you can actually lose up to one full head loss with an unradiused/unflared exhaust! Hell, if i were making a bolt i would try to get a smoth glasslike surface on the interior of the flow canals. Or maybe an ultra-smooth teflon coat inside $$$ . Interior Friction factor is a major factor in efficient flow and it's effects can be greatly magnified at high velocities and presuures. Just Check out the Darcy-Weisbbach Formulae and ColebrookFormulae with some Moody Charts and it's really quite astounding!

FYI - This is one primary reason Micro honed barrels break little paint, Not so much the smooth surface interacting with the paintball, but the ability of the air to effiecinetly flow in front of and behind with little turbulence against the walls of the barrel. Dang I love Dye Barrels!

And I'm not trying to sound elite. I'm just expressing my liking for all the intuition found in this thread and hope it continues for many more days!

Good Luck Rogue. May the Swartz be w/ you!

up...for a sweet bolt and thread

[RapidTransit]

The venturi is not always best, but can have advantages in situatations. Personally I prefer it. There is always a bit of triage (sp?) when choosing a "best whatever" in anything. That's life. Hardrock68...you are sooo close to the theory of venturi flow [esp. in bolts] it's crazy. Hint: think laminar flow and the benefits of it versus open flow impacting a sphere (paintball).

Correct me if im wrong, but would a properly designed venturi, there always will be an advantage. I just think carbs, without a venturi and how crappy theyd work without em

Whats going to be used to keep the bolt from nicking the next ball in line?

I also wondered about making the rear tapered and taking from a performance valvetrain using beehive springs, which work well for high RPM's or in this case bps.

But what matters most to move the ball? The amount of pressure or the velocity of air at a certain cfm?

[GT]

FYI - This is one primary reason Micro honed barrels break little paint,

And I'm not trying to sound elite.

Since when did barrels break paint? The only problem I have ever had is barrels comming unscrewed and mis-matched surfaces knicking the ball. Second, who does an does not make microhoned barrels? Heck what does micro hone mean from one company to the next?

[PnueMagger]

Since when did barrels break paint? The only problem I have ever had is barrels comming unscrewed and mis-matched surfaces knicking the ball. Second, who does an does not make microhoned barrels? Heck what does micro hone mean from one company to the next?

You've never had a barrel break? I mean, crappy balls break all day long but I'm not really talking about that. Honing is the process of machining/finishing something to a specified tolereance, like a piston cylinder, or pb barrel. "Micro-honed" simply refers to micron ranged tolerances. I'm basically talking about the stock barrels and the low end value barrels on markers. Almost all (quality) after-market barrels do benefit from this. If I remember the Lvl 7 mag video correctly, TK talks a little about how their new Crown point barrel "gently released the ball" for more accurate shots. Basically, the driving idea behind a crown point barrel is that you'll relieve a great deal or turbulence from the front of the ball before it actually leaves the barrel. Man, TK was always ahead of the game, he knew what was up . The same is true about modern ported barrels, that the air pressure in front of (and behind) the ball acts @ lower pressure resulting in lower natural turbulence. This method is more modern and better performing way to lower the in-barrel turbulence.
But remember way back in the day when almost all barrels were not ported? And how the J&J Brass barrels were sweet? They weren't ported and had the same bores and functionality of basically every other barrel back then. But they used a much nicer micro-honed finish, and brass (commonly known as a "self-lubricating" material). This is the kind of example i wanted to show, how if rougue could somehow micro-hone or get a glassy interior bolt surface, his bolt would benefit from time proven technology.