Tank explodes in Madrid

[fire1811]

why the hell would you put 3in1 into your fill nipple?

normally its because they have a leak from the quick fill. And since there is an oring in there they figure oil will help. Honestly for the longest time when I started playing in the 90's it was a normal fix. I think the change now is the tanks are "slammed filled", where in the older days they were most always filled slowly. The increase in fill rate generates more heat which inturn makes the oil unhappy.

[Lohman446]

I love how this is suddenly blamed on flash filling. Are we filling tanks properly (including a containment box should things go wrong)? Obviously not. However, this was not a fault of flash filling. Its like someone being broadsided and then everyone going "oh, should have checked your fuel lines" a safety issue yes that had nothing to do with what happened.

[ZEROte]

flash filling made the tank hot enough to ignite the oil. scary stuff nonetheless.

[fire1811]

Obviously not. However, this was not a fault of flash filling. Its like someone being broadsided and then everyone going "oh, should have checked your fuel lines" a safety issue yes that had nothing to do with what happened.

Actually flash filling had quite a lot to do with it. As the air is compressed the amount of oxygen is increased. Fire requires three things to start: heat, fuel, and oxygen. The temperature needed to start a fuel burning is called flash point. As the amount of oxygen a fuel is exposed to increases, the flash point drops. So without the heat produced by a slam fill the flash point would be higher due to its lower temperature.

I agree with you on the filling needs to be in a containment box, but honestly I dont see this happening for quite a long time.

[magman007]

btw, you may not feel that much heat coming from your tank, but you also must remember that the tank is insulating some of it as well. there is an IMENSE amount of friction and pressure going on when filling, deffinitely enough to ignite vaporized oil, which as stated earlier, is quite volitile under pressure.

[neppo1345]

i dont see how it could IGNITE from air though?



also, the fill station as the local field broke today, and when the pressure made the hose jump a little bit, it ripped my friends fill nipple in half. it was definitly some scary ****

Deisel Engines (basic concept)


Basically, when the air enters the fill nipple, it atomizes the oil. As the pressure increases, the temperature increases (thats why your tank feels warm after a flash fill).

So now you have a temperature increase, atomized "petroleum product" (the stuff gas is made from), and SUPER high pressures.

boom

[Lohman446]

Actually flash filling had quite a lot to do with it. As the air is compressed the amount of oxygen is increased. Fire requires three things to start: heat, fuel, and oxygen. The temperature needed to start a fuel burning is called flash point. As the amount of oxygen a fuel is exposed to increases, the flash point drops. So without the heat produced by a slam fill the flash point would be higher due to its lower temperature.

I agree with you on the filling needs to be in a containment box, but honestly I dont see this happening for quite a long time.

Bu you don't require the heat to ignite the oil. Filling a bottle will put enough oxygen in there to ignite - increasing the pressure will lower the flash point (perhaps as low as ambient temperature). At this point you can get a fire. Granted, a higher temperature in the tank (along with a lower flash point) may cause problems where there would not have been had there not been a slam fill, but it is certainly not a prerequisite. If there is oil in the system simply filling may be enough to lower the flash point of that oil enough to ignite.

The fault here was in the oil more than in the filling procedure - in my opinion without any real insight into the facts at hand in the situation.

[ahellers]

so what is the perferd method to maintian the orings in the fill nipple?
t

[Beemer]

Looking around I found these.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1574497

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1574448

Plus the one in my first post.

Found this one but got to lost to verify a post on the subject.
Can someone translate.

http://forum.paintballers.de/index.php

So I would guess Mr Kent's statement to be real but that is all. The only thing I see in that statement is that something happened and they decided. Doh, it aint there fault

All the facts Mr Kent please, all the facts.

Reminds me of Dragnet. Just the facts Mam, just the facts.

I know that many players think that filling an Air system in "no big deal"
but according to the NSERA and APL {paintball specific Insurance} Only trained and certified staff are to perform air fills.

Every weekend fields Violate the requirements set forth to protect us as players.
It does not matter if the Player was at fault in this accident, The promoter and Staff are at fault for allowing a noncertified person to preform the fill.

Ouch, but true.

I hate the people who fill tanks at fields. They basicly slap your tank on the adaptor, turn the bleed off, open the gate completely, filling you tank in less than 5 seconds, then close it, bleed it, and give it back to you. Not only is this stupid and dangerous, My tank pressure goes from 3000 psi to 2400 psi in 2 minutes, and then I have to go back and get it filled AGAIN.
Putting oil in his tank was really not a good idea... This was at a Millenium tourney right? Aren't these people knowledgable enough not to put oil in their tanks???

Ya thats a SLAM fill. [Slam = Flash] SlamFill is new paintball term by Fire1811.

You would think they would know but that I.A.D.S.P.B.P. thing IS a world wide thing.

However: High pressure air is safe if used properly

Pretty simple yet so hard for paintballers to get.

I think the change now is the tanks are "slammed filled", where in the older days they were most always filled slowly. The increase in fill rate generates more heat which inturn makes the oil unhappy.

True and true. Hey you copyrite that term? Mind if I use it? We need paintball terms[lingo]so they comprehend.

I love how this is suddenly blamed on flash filling. Are we filling tanks properly (including a containment box should things go wrong)? Obviously not. However, this was not a fault of flash filling.

I said it gave new meaning, never blamed it on anything.[Need ALL the facts] Ya and obviously not. I never did say it was a fault of a Slam Fill. How can you say it was not?
You got some facts spit em out.

Actually flash filling had quite a lot to do with it. As the air is compressed the amount of oxygen is increased. Fire requires three things to start: heat, fuel, and oxygen. The temperature needed to start a fuel burning is called flash point. As the amount of oxygen a fuel is exposed to increases, the flash point drops. So without the heat produced by a slam fill the flash point would be higher due to its lower temperature.

Maybe maybe not. We dont have ALL the facts. Got fuel got air need the heat too. Did a Slam happen? H-Pac will say no.
That would mean the vessel and or reg failed for other reasons. Wonder what tank it was.

Lots of questions and no answers at this time.

Peace Out

to add. oops forgot to add this. MSDS on 3 in 1. How hot does a slam get?

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/3In1MSDS.pdf

[Ken Majors]

Bu you don't require the heat to ignite the oil. Filling a bottle will put enough oxygen in there to ignite - increasing the pressure will lower the flash point (perhaps as low as ambient temperature). At this point you can get a fire. Granted, a higher temperature in the tank (along with a lower flash point) may cause problems where there would not have been had there not been a slam fill, but it is certainly not a prerequisite. If there is oil in the system simply filling may be enough to lower the flash point of that oil enough to ignite.

The fault here was in the oil more than in the filling procedure - in my opinion without any real insight into the facts at hand in the situation.

The ignition temperature of the pressurized fuel is what you are referring to.
The flash point is insignificant in this application. What I mean is without an ignition source, the flash point is insignificant.
Ignition temp is the temp at which a given fuel will ignite without an ignition source. But...like you said, if you pressurize the fuel enough to lower the flash point/ingnition point, then you have a big boom. The semantics aren't important.

We will only see containment box filling stations when a few kids get killed from similar situations. I can remember my first big game when I saw a 10 year old kid walk up to the fill station and slam fill an HPA bottle. My heart literally skipped a beat.
It will happen it is only a matter of time.

[jewie27]

people in paintball have no idea how to fill a cylinder at the proper fill rate. Oil should never be put into the fill port..

compressed air cylinders need to be filled at 100psi per minute or slower. the slower the better.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I remember when i first started playing, I was always told to just put a couple drops of oil in my asa, then put the tank on and cycle the marker a couple of times to oil my gun...

[paullus99]

And remember from your physics class - heat = pressure, the higher the pressure, the more heat is generated....

[jsdatjsd]

Holy cannoli!

Now I want to skip the HPA and go CO2......


Or buy my own fill station.

Or buy 3 HPA tansk, and have them slow filled at a licesnes/certified scuba shop and just say when my 3 tanks are dry, the day is over.

I was always weirded out by tanks fills...

Now, if I have a 3000 psi hpa tank, and I should take 1 minute per psi, that is a 30 minute refill. No way any field will let a single tank monopoloze the station for a half hour.

You might get 500 psi a minute, of yo ubeg them to fill it slowly....

Never played at a field where players were allowed to fill their own tanks.

I just looked at the price of buying a containement system and an HPA compressor for myself.......ouch.

So If I get hpa, I risk a blow out?

-JD

[cowboy_00]

Holy cannoli!

Now I want to skip the HPA and go CO2......


Or buy my own fill station.

Or buy 3 HPA tansk, and have them slow filled at a licesnes/certified scuba shop and just say when my 3 tanks are dry, the day is over.

I was always weirded out by tanks fills...

Now, if I have a 3000 psi hpa tank, and I should take 1 minute per psi, that is a 30 minute refill. No way any field will let a single tank monopoloze the station for a half hour.

You might get 500 psi a minute, of yo ubeg them to fill it slowly....

Never played at a field where players were allowed to fill their own tanks.

I just looked at the price of buying a containement system and an HPA compressor for myself.......ouch.

So If I get hpa, I risk a blow out?

-JD

Most likely not. This is a freak accident of a lot of silly things coming together at once.

No field I play on lets me fill my own tank and if i am ever forced to fill my own tank ill let me SCBA certified teammate fill em and take all the time he needs.

Like someone said above, HPA is dangerous when used by stupid people who dont know basic safety. as long as your safe and smart you shouldnt run into to much at all.


(Plus havent you heard of people managing to unscrew the valve from Co2 tanks and making them into little rockets off there markers)