Tank explodes in Madrid

[Muzikman]

To date the only serious injury that has happen in Europe (French leg of the Millenium) has been the near blinding of an english guy whose macro fitting blew up at the fill station...the result is macro fittings that actually have correct burst pressures and macroline that has correct burst pressures for the use in Paintball...NONE of the major paintball equipment makers supply ANY fitting or hose that comes close enough to be honestly regarded as safe. If any of you actually belong to the p8ntballer forum or wish to join then find a guy called Tom Allen and buy his fittings and hose they are a fair bit more than the ones you are using but what price your eyes or worse?

This is the reason I will never use Macro/Micro and it's steel braid and brass fittings for me (not even aluminum). I value my life and the lives of those around me.

One thing people have to remember is that anything over 300psi is high pressure and is dangerous.

Oh, and I only use 6 ball QD's.

[Muzikman]

I think Mark is talking about Macro lines and fittings.

[Surestick]

they distribute it in a pressurized can

Yes, they do sell oil in a pressurized can but not at 3K PSI & not pressurized w/air. Generally there's a propellant used & there is no oxygen or other oxidizers in the can & therefore no chance of combustion.

[Beemer]

They distribute oil in a pressurized can - to 3000PSI? Think of a true diesel engine - whats the ignition source? More pressure lowers the flash point

No not 3000psi but still under pressure. Of course under pressure its not 3in1 oil anymore, its WD-40 then it magically changes back to 3in1 after you spray it out and some evaporation happens. The ignition source is the Heated Air. Even if pressure lowers the flash you still need heat for ignition. The question is how much? Where did it come from.
Where was the failure? Wonder if it was a Stako tank.

Compressed air at high pressures may accelerate combustion but you still need fuel and heat.

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/MSDS-CompressedAir.pdf

Yes, they do sell oil in a pressurized can but not at 3K PSI & not pressurized w/air. Generally there's a propellant used & there is no oxygen or other oxidizers in the can & therefore no chance of combustion.

I know not at 3000psi. It will combust if you apply enough heat.

[MarkM]

What about these:

http://store.airgun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=322&categoryID=16

I assume AGD is a major enough... :rofl: (Sorry, couldn't help it...)

I think Mark is talking about Macro lines and fittings.

Muzikman, I am talking about macro fittings BUT those Stainless braided although somewhat stronger than macro hose are still rated below what we actually at times put into the hoses and the elbows they fit into. 2 years ago I showed Tom the fittings I was using together with the spec sheet and he agreed they were better than those he sold but said although better than his (and everyone elses) people won't pay the extra cost. Stainless braid is simply macro wrapped in stainless braid it isn't some mythical stronger hose, it leaks in just the same way as macro and in some cases worse than macro as I have seen many steel braids blow up like a ballon.
This thread is actually about an entire bottle/reg letting go, I brought up the fittings used as simply the next step towards ensuring that accidents are limited.

[Lohman446]

Compressed air at high pressures may accelerate combustion but you still need fuel and heat.
.

Agreed. Obviously a fuel source is always needed. Compression lowers how much heat is needed. 70 degrees is heat, just probably not enough to do anything with

[Surestick]

It will combust if you apply enough heat.

Not if there's no oxygen in the can...

Spray cans use a propellant to provide the pressure, not pressurized air so there's no oxygen.

Of course if you heat it enough the can will fail due to overpressure & whatever is inside will be in contact with air & can burn.

Remember the combustion triangle: fuel - oxygen - heat. If you remove one of them thre can be no fire.

When you add oil to an HPA tank you are mixing fuel & oxygen. The high pressure lowers the amount of heat needed to start combustion so you end up w/a dangerous mix.

[SlartyBartFast]

Remember the combustion triangle: fuel - oxygen - heat. If you remove one of them thre can be no fire.

Hmm Someone brighter than the average bear.

Just remember that "heat" is still present even when at 1 degree above absolute zero.

Anything combustible into liquid oxygen will vaporise instantly.

To those ignorantly arguing and comparing 3000/4500psi with lots of air vs. a few psi and no air in a WD-40 bottle: Pressure increases the "oxygen" part of the triangle and lowers the heat requirement.

Good definitions, even includes some math:

http://www-che.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/faculty/rinard/design/Safety3.pdf

[hitech]

...BUT those Stainless braided although somewhat stronger than macro hose are still rated below what we actually at times put into the hoses...Stainless braid is simply macro wrapped in stainless braid it isn't some mythical stronger hose...

Not the stuff I'm used to. Most of what I am use to is "grease gun" hose with a SS braid. I just recently had some made from "parker" and it's rated well above 3k psi. And it didn't even have the SS braid (that stuff was rated even higher).

[MarkM]

Not the stuff I'm used to. Most of what I am use to is "grease gun" hose with a SS braid. I just recently had some made from "parker" and it's rated well above 3k psi. And it didn't even have the SS braid (that stuff was rated even higher).

I know what you mean I didn't say the product wasn't out there but it isn't supplied by the paintball stores unless they have gone to the trouble of sourcing it and due to cost differences the majority don't sell it because as it costs more in the first place so they will still have in inventory. Macro and Braid varied greatly in performance and to look at them both they look alike, so the customer has no way of knowing that Macro or Braid from X store is inferior or better than Y store. Tom told me the macro fittings I use were above the items HE sold and the reason for not stocking was purely the cost, I showed him with a view to getting a supply line into him. Admittedly he very shortly afterwards announced his change of direction. The fittings I use appear to be macro but if I took regular macro hose and tried to use it the hose falls out of the fitting.

[hitech]

So, do you know the specs on the braided hose in the AGD online store?

[raehl]

I remember when i first started playing, I was always told to just put a couple drops of oil in my asa, then put the tank on and cycle the marker a couple of times to oil my gun...

And there is nothing wrong with that, unless you're an idiot, because you're not putting petroleum-based oil in your marker( unless you like your orings deteriorating), and the PSI in your ASA is 850 or so, not 4500.

There are several problems here, one of which is most people don't understand the difference between oil as a LUBRICANT, and oil as in petrolium. Substances can be one, both, or the other. It's only the oil that's based on Petroleum that's going to run you into trouble in your tank; there are plenty of LUBRICATING oils that are not petroleum based that are fine.

The easy solution, though, is don't put any liquid in your tank. Tanks don't need oil, and it shouldn't be used. Non-petroleum oil in your ASA is OK.

- Chris

[raehl]

One quick thought on flash fills...

Flash fills may be bad, but it's extremely unlikely flash filling would cause the kind of scenario that happened at Millenium. The injuries generally associated with compressed air tanks in paintball (esp. carbon fiber ones) occur when the tanks get turned into projectiles because the regulator separates from the tank - that's the two fatalities from Co2 tanks in the US, and the circumstances in the Millenium incident - the heat ruined the integrity of the regulator which separated from the tank and the intact tank became a projectile.

With tank failures (what you'd get from extensive flash fills), the tank will fail with a rupture, which is a massive failure which releases your pressure quickly and not in a vectored direction. I'm not saying this is a great outcome, but the tank at least won't go flying all over the place.


This is one reason I avoid the cheapie aluminium tanks in favor of carbon fiber tanks - the carbon fiber tanks won't send metal fragments into your hand if they fail.

- Chris

[MarkM]

So, do you know the specs on the braided hose in the AGD online store?

Lower than the ones I use, even though it was macro I was showing Tom...afterall he should know How much lower I have no idea.

[deathstalker]

This is the reason I will never use Macro/Micro and it's steel braid and brass fittings for me (not even aluminum).

I remember reading a few years back that brass is not rated for the pressures we see in paintball, either. If you want to play it safe, you need to find SS fittings, too (not the nickel-plated ones some stores try to pass off as SS). Like I said, I read it a few years ago, so my memory could be playing tricks on me.