Tippmann, BT and Ben

[BerSerK]

Hi,

I heard a lot of different things about Tippmann, Ben Tippmann and BT so I wanted to ask here if anyone knows the "real" story.

Here's what I heard. Ben Tippmann founded Tippmann and some years ago decided to leave and founded BT, now Tippmann is owned by another company and Ben is at the head of BT.

Is that right ? If not what's the real story, I searched on Google and didn't find anything to confirm which is why I have some doubts.

Thanks!

[iambored]

From what I've heard, Ben is the cousin or nefu to the guy who has owned tippmann and when ben started making tippy clones and using the family name there was a trade mark issue which was later resolved

[Chronobreak]

you know what really sucks

all the fields that use tippmans are SOL, when it comes to parts
tippmann is discontinuing pretty much everything but m-98 and a-5 parts if i recall

who is tippmann owned by now anyways? also i think theyr "tippmann sports" or something goofy now

ive been really impressed with the BT products and support i have seen Thus far, i would expect MANY fields including ours to be ehading the way of BT in the future

[Lohman446]

I beleive Summit Investment Group, or something similiar, owns Tippman now

[bleachit]

ive been really impressed with the BT products and support i have seen Thus far, i would expect MANY fields including ours to be ehading the way of BT in the future

I just played at an indoor place a few weeks ago, first time in a LOOOONG time Ive played at all.

they had all BT markers for rentals.

[Al_Steel]

Try finding parts for a 68 Special, they are getting downright rare. Tippmann doesn't even work on them anymore or make parts. humph!

I used to be a die hard Tippmann fanatic, but when they stopped supporting their older stuff I stopped supporting them. They are becoming the Microsoft of paintball IMO. AGD OTOH will support markers that they have made since day one, a BIG reason why I made the switch.

[Lee]

just played at waynes world last weekend. my son used a rental BT. it worked pretty well, he enjoyed it.

[BerSerK]

found some light in tippmann.com

http://www.tippmann.com/about_us/pressReleaseDetails.aspx?id=10

[punkncat]

Try finding parts for a 68 Special, they are getting downright rare. Tippmann doesn't even work on them anymore or make parts. humph!

I used to be a die hard Tippmann fanatic, but when they stopped supporting their older stuff I stopped supporting them. They are becoming the Microsoft of paintball IMO. AGD OTOH will support markers that they have made since day one, a BIG reason why I made the switch.

Not trying to be a dick or anything, but that is rediculous. How could you honestly expect ANY company to indefinately support its product?

Try and find parts for a Dye cocker. They are less than half the age of a 68 special. Look on Dye's website for something about a DM3....even less time. The only place you can find parts for the old Matrixes is an aftermarket company, TMC. Most markers with any age on them are catered to by aftermarket companies, or niche specialists.

The 68 turned out to be a great marker and was rugged and reliable as all get out. It was replaced long ago...I am not sure but the end result being the Pro Carbine, which is not available anymore either so far as I know. It would be unrealistic to think that Tippmann (not even the same owners) would continue to support and make parts for a marker they sold almost 10 years ago and discontinued at least 5 or more. These companies are in buisiness to sell you new equipment. They don't want you buying small dollar parts to keep an old marker running when they can get you for a buck and a half on a new one every few years.

[buzzboy]

Tippmann was cool until they discontinued the Pro/Carbine. That ended a saga of awesome woodsball markers. Stupid Tippmann.

BT seems like a good company. I have seen their stuff at fields before. Looks like it holds up to rental use just fine. Though I guess that the markers really aren't that old at the fields so I can't tell. Anybody know how long a field keeps their markers before selling the lot off and replacing.

[Al_Steel]

IMO Dye isn't Tippmann. I expect more from Tippmann b/c they are the industry leader and I have dealt with their outstanding customer service on several occasions. Their leadership status can be argued, but it's a fact that they hold more marketshare than any other manufacturer AND they have been around longer than almost all others.

I'm NOT a Tippmann hater. I have owned and played almost every single paintball product Tippmann has EVER produced. It's unfortunate to witness a company I have had such respect for follow the industry rather than vice-versa. Perhaps it's the new management style or maybe they are simply adhering to best business practices. Whatever the case, the Tippmann customer service mantra of years ago may be going away. They appear to be following the industry trend of disposable products that are here today and gone tomorrow. I certainly hope this isn't the case, but the writing is on the wall.

In contrast WGP and AGD will support a product made 15 years ago. In that light is it really so "rediculous" for me to expect the industry leader to support their products?

Tippmann serves the paintball masses very well and continues to improve their products. However, as a loyal Tippmann owner I feel that I have been forgotten about and brushed aside. I'm not a big believer in the "newer is better" philosophy, I will pit my 68 Special against any modern marker in a woodsball match. I shouldn't be forced into buying a new marker just b/c it's popular or the manufacturer want's to milk me for cash. That's something I have come to expect from some other companies, but not from Tippmann.

[BigEvil]

Cant blame Tippman for still not making 68 special parts... its not like there are 100,000 68 specials still on the fields. I had two of them, most soft parts could be replaced with a little ingenuity IIRC.(or as I liked to call it "desperation")

The Dye Cocker example is a good one... the gun was crap to begin with, but they did have a pretty decent amount of aftermarket cocker parts that were sold seperately. My brother has DYE pnues on the front of his cocker, and the LPR has been acting up. Think I will be able to find parts? I told him to buy a Micro-Rock. Then I told him to buy a new gun.

Hasnt anyone thought of the day when AGD stopped supporting the classic mag valve?

[Banshee23]

Hasnt anyone thought of the day when AGD stopped supporting the classic mag valve?

But at least AGD still sells all of the parts for the classic valve so you can fix it yourself. They just don't have the star warranty anymore.

[Al_Steel]

Cant blame Tippman for still not making 68 special parts... its not like there are 100,000 68 specials still on the fields. I had two of them, most soft parts could be replaced with a little ingenuity IIRC.(or as I liked to call it "desperation")

Agreed.. I've fashioned a 68 Special part or two myself. Ok maybe I'm a little sensitive cuz the old warhorse get's no love. I've just seen Tippy dropping lots of markers lately that work great in woodsball in favor of new stuff that isn't necessarily better. Oh well, maybe I'm just a bit too sentimental. Anywho, I love my RT-Pro so no worries.

Also, just to help muddy the water on the original thread...

Tippmann started with Tippmann Industrial products which made (and still makes) industrial strength sewing machines. They also had another branch of the corporation called Tippmann Arms (Started by Dennis Tippmann Sr. I believe) that made .22 caliber half-scale machine gun replicas. In 1986 the Firearm Owners' Protection Act effectively wiped out the market for Tippman Arms' products by outlawing their products for all but law enforcement or military use. This left Tippmann Arms in a bind. So the Tippmann's took their firearms knowledge and channeled it into making the first fully automatic paintball marker, the SMG-60. Tippmann soon started making the 68 Special, Tippmann Arms changed it's name to Tippmann Pnuematics, and the rest is history.

Fairly recently (2004), due to the overwhelming popularity of Tippmann markers, Tippmann restructured to handle increased demand for their products. The company brought in an outside firm, Summit Partners, to help it handle the growth. Contrary to popular belief, Tippmann was not bought by Summit Partners, rather they formed a partnership with Summit Partners, which is an investment firm that lent capital (cash) and management experience to the Tippmann corporation. This left Dennis Tippmann Jr. as a VP in charge of product development and Sr. on the Board of Directors and as a management consultant of the newly restructured "Tippmann Sports, LLC".

From what I can gather, Ben Tippmann, nephew of Dennis Tippmann. Sr., was deeply involved with Tippmann Pneumatics and apparently did design and development work (he may have been the architect of the Model 98 but don't quote me on that). It's not clear to me if he was either dissatified with the direction the company was taking or if he was going to be left out of the management loop (first rule of acquisition: retire all family members) but one thing is obvious, he either voluntarily or involuntarily left Tippmann Pneumatics.

In 2003 Ben Tippmann took his design experience, ideas, and desire to bring new products to the sport away and founded BT Designs. BT Designs markers are geared directly towards Scenario and Woodsball players but are built on a frame that is VERY similar to the Tippmann Model 98. This created some brand confusion among the marketplace which led to Tippmann Sports filing suit in late 2005 against BT Designs citing violations of their intellectual property. This lawsuit was settled in February 2006 and while the terms of the settlement are confidential, it's obvious that BT Designs was allowed to continue production.

So you have BT Designs with their BT-4 and BT-16 line and Tippmann Sports with the Model 98 line. Even though they are similar in appearance there are subtle differences that set them apart enough to satisfy the lawyers. I wonder if Ben still gets Christmas cards from Dennis and Jr.?

[Jaan]

But at least AGD still sells all of the parts for the classic valve so you can fix it yourself. They just don't have the star warranty anymore.

Well, not to put too fine of a point on it ... but one of the reasons I bought a 'Mag in the first place was back then they promised a "lifetime" warranty, in the pre-star days.

It may be ridiculous to *expect* a company to support it's products indefinitely, but it's not unheard of. For Tippmann they could make a whole mess of common replacement parts for the old guns every 2 years or so ... the payoff being to increase the public perception that Tippmann guns last forever, unlike their competition. That is, after all, one of the major things they have going for them. If you take away that, then they're just another flashy gun on the wall at S-Mart.