What can we learn from the Bobby Dukes story?

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  • Lohman446
    Useful posts: 7
    • Jun 2003
    • 9315

    #1

    What can we learn from the Bobby Dukes story?

    In the film the main character is caught cheating and banned for ten years. I laughed when I heard it, and immediatly knew this was fiction. Forgive me if thats all I know, I have not actually watched it. He becomes a pariah to the sport even after those ten years and is not easily forgiven, in fact he has to "earn" his way back into the respect.

    One of the early paintball videos, from over a decade ago, showed a certain player looking both ways, and then rubbing up against a tree, probably to remove a hit. Now, the video was known enough, but has since disappeared, and I cannot seem to find it, or the articles relating to it, nor did I frankly ever see it myself, I am going off third hand (or is it fourth?) accounts. Those who know what I'm talking about might do better. The story continues that in a captains meeting later on there is some discussion about what to do about it, and finally one player comes up and defends said cheater noting that, perhaps, everyone at that level had already done it at one time or another. This is not to say cheating was prevelant then. How do you punish someone for something you may have done once, when the only difference is they were caught on tape? At the time, and when I first read the article related I felt it was the right thing from the person who had made that defense. We've all screwed up at sometime and done something we are not proud of, sometimes we have to let it slide and all that.

    Somewhere cheating has slipped its way into our game. The last tournament I played at some little kid (and I mean under fifteen I'm sure) informed one of my players who was calling him out on cheating that "the game was over and it didn't matter" or some such. In fact he was right to some degree. I have played countless games against people I am comfortable with, who I call my friends, who after a game will discuss how its just "disappeared" or, you would never beleive that bounced - mostly because it didn't. In fact cheating is openly embraced and discussed by those at a certain level.

    Leave the character flaws that lead to cheating aside. Even the excuses that some of us have used to justify it. What if the reaction was different? What if, when offered clear proof that someone cheated we did shun them, we did ban them from the sport at all but the shadiest of fields for a decade? What if we did treat cheaters as umm... gasp cheaters. I argued once that wiping was like holding in football, it happens. I was wrong then, as others pointed out its more like making the rim on your opponents basket too small for the ball to go through. Skill does not overcome it. What if paintball players had not in the "early" instances turned a blind eye to those who would cheat? How much different would the game be if those that were caught had been removed for a decade, had paid a real price?
    "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess
  • mr.mag218
    just plain registered

    • Jan 2005
    • 577

    #2
    i respect you at the highest of levels. but unfortunatley cheating will never go away. baseball players will always take steroids, and paintballers will always wipe. it is an enviroment created by those who cheat to win, then it becomes "well i shot him and he whiped so why should i call myself out".......then this trains the newer kids on the code of cheating.

    Comment

    • Lohman446
      Useful posts: 7
      • Jun 2003
      • 9315

      #3
      Originally posted by mr.mag218
      i respect you at the highest of levels. but unfortunatley cheating will never go away. baseball players will always take steroids, and paintballers will always wipe. it is an enviroment created by those who cheat to win, then it becomes "well i shot him and he whiped so why should i call myself out".......then this trains the newer kids on the code of cheating.
      True that cheating will always exist. But do you think that steroids are as common in baseball today as they were five/ten years ago? Granted we may have just changed the drug of choice. Regarless five to ten years ago it seems that in baseball the use was at best ignored, and at worst encouraged. Compare this to the NFL. The steroid policy came around because of pressure from the player union to keep from having to do it "to keep up". The penalties were always pretty severe. HGH and new designer drugs may have blurred even that line of course.

      I guess I am as much concerned with the culture of paintball that almost seems to put cheating on a pedestal, and at best ignores it.
      "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

      Comment

      • Phillips
        Music FrEaK!
        • Aug 2006
        • 85

        #4
        I don't see why drugs taking has to be part of any sport, in the Premiership( English soccer leauge) there is NO drug taking because rules and testing is that tightly maintained, fo rinstance a player was repremanded for missing a test( even though he went back afte rhe realised).

        If you test before every match there is no risk.


        I think we can learn one thing from the Bobby Dukes story, how top flight professionals use Spyders to their advantage yes you walk that trigger

        Comment

        • Philey-O-Fish
          Rec Paintballer
          • Dec 2003
          • 12

          #5
          Currently, I don't know if there is any punishment for wiping besides maybe a point loss? I don't know, I don't play or follow tournament paintball but if I were to run a tournament, I'd ban people caught intentionally wiping.

          Comment

          • SR_matt
            Santa Sucks
            • Jun 2006
            • 1072

            #6
            when iw as watching xball yesterday it looked liek wiping any playing on resulted int eh palyer being pulled and another player going in the box for 5 mins. im sorry it should be that the palyer gets pulled form the tournament at the least if not the whole team for at least that tourney or even better a few tournies.

            -matt

            Comment

            • 11 Bravo
              Predatored Karta Mag
              • May 2005
              • 1247

              #7
              ^^^^^ I agree. If you start punishing the whole team it will make a difference. Kick the whole team out of the league for a few tournaments. It will stop then.

              Comment

              • kruger
                KRUGER GRIPS

                • Jun 2004
                • 1915

                #8
                Recently, at my field, we had a small 5 man game. We called it the "L" tournament. The village and the hyperball field are laid out sorta like an "L" shape. It was just a friendly tourny and first place only got 5 cases of Xball. We dont normally do this sort of thing, but people asked for something like this. Anyway, while we were ironing out the rules. we decided that if anybody was caught wiping, they were out for the rest of the tourney. Period. We made it very clear at the first of the day that this would be the result of wiping. This was just a friendly tourney. If anybody got caught playing on, with an obvious hit, then they were out for the rest of that match, and one other was pulled from their team. I am happy to say that nobody was caught wiping or playing on. Does that mean that they didnt? I dont know that answer, but I do know that they werent caught. We play honor ball. We play for the fun of it. As I have stated in other threads, to me, and the people at my field, paintball is an objective sport. And we play the way that we want our oponents to play against us. You can lie, but you cant cheat.
                WOW, sigs. Havent seen these in a while here on AO.

                Comment

                • coreyander
                  Registered User
                  • Oct 2006
                  • 192

                  #9
                  you should be praising ppl that play fair.....not shunning ppl that cheat. Posting about it on AO is not going to change the course of the game. All it does is waste my time and yours. :).

                  Cheaters are not going to make me quit playing paintball......or poker......or go through everyday life and deal w/ cheaters.

                  Ppl cheat at everything, careers, college, high school, aptitude tests, military, welfare, traffic......you name it.....ppl cheat at it. Its time to move on lohman. Posting about it has changed nothing yet and I dont anticipate it changing anything in the future.

                  Its something you have to learn to deal with in life. All you and I can do is what we know is the right thing to do. While I agree about cheating being bad for the sport, all I can really do about it is....not cheat. Our team doesnt cheat. We play fair, and try to get better. Cheating doesnt make you better. Ive actually seen a few practice days go like this:

                  We play them.....they cheat at first. As the day goes on and they realize we arent cheating, they begin to play fair as well. There have been times where we played fair and they never noticed, or continued cheating, and we hastily tell them, go scrimmage someone else, we dont get better by scrimmaging cheaters......right to their face. But......we are certain they are cheating before we accuse them. Its worked well for us so far. A lot of teams respect us for it.

                  Comment

                  • SR_matt
                    Santa Sucks
                    • Jun 2006
                    • 1072

                    #10
                    i dont think the point is that people cheat bohoo hoo

                    the point is that the penalties for cheating are way to low. if you cheat on your tax returns and get caught do you just get a little slap on the hand and have to pay what u should have? no you get a huge fine and jail time.

                    the point that is being brought up consistantly is that the only way to stop the cheating so we dont have to deal with the BS is to crack down on the cheaters.

                    -matt

                    Comment

                    • Triangle

                      #11
                      I think you're talking about the PUSH video.
                      I'll see if I can find an online copy.

                      Comment

                      • FiXeL
                        Registered Gun-Whore
                        • May 2006
                        • 819

                        #12
                        I agree the penalties for cheating are laughable. Disqualify a complete team if any player of that team is caugth cheating. And not just for that game, but for the whole tourney or series they play in. But then again, this can only be enforced when there is proof that the team cheated, just one reff seeing it happening will not do. Big soccer games in europe have massive tv coverage and have loads of camera's on field. It would be alot easier when the cheater is caught on tape to proof the reff is making a good call, and protect the reff from being whooped by the team afterwards..

                        And yes, violence against soccer reffs is way to common...

                        Comment

                        • Lohman446
                          Useful posts: 7
                          • Jun 2003
                          • 9315

                          #13
                          Originally posted by FiXeL
                          I agree the penalties for cheating are laughable. Disqualify a complete team if any player of that team is caugth cheating. And not just for that game, but for the whole tourney or series they play in. But then again, this can only be enforced when there is proof that the team cheated, just one reff seeing it happening will not do. Big soccer games in europe have massive tv coverage and have loads of camera's on field. It would be alot easier when the cheater is caught on tape to proof the reff is making a good call, and protect the reff from being whooped by the team afterwards..

                          And yes, violence against soccer reffs is way to common...

                          But we had video evidence once, of a big name player cheating in - 1992? or so. We have it often today. We laugh it off "the ref didn't see it" so its ok or some such. If a football player stomped on another and the refs managed to not notice, do you not think that they league would take action after seeing the tape?
                          "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

                          Comment

                          • coreyander
                            Registered User
                            • Oct 2006
                            • 192

                            #14
                            yes the league would probably fine the guy after reviewing the tape. Are the going to strip the team of a win? no.. Would they strip a paintball team of a win for reviewing a tape w/ someone running through after taking 2 balls and still getting their 1 for 1 bunker? Doubt it. Its hard for a ref to tell who got shot first. A slow motion tape is not going to cause a change in the outcome. Same w/ football. Teams dont lose because they got penalized for a holding call. They loose because they played crappy. Period. A few penalties esp early on are not going to change the outcome of a game.

                            penalties for cheating are sufficient. Points deductions, 2 for 1s, etc are effective. And ppl that have gotten caught cheating and earned their team a deduction that have cost them a place in standings esp on a national level dont go over well w/ the team.

                            Penalty for holding in football? 10 yards. Penalty for illegal hands to the face? 15yds. What do you expect?

                            Just because you have strong feelings against penalties doesnt mean a team should be disqualified or whatever from a tournament. If its repetative....it happens.

                            Teams known for cheating around here get nit picked on other stuff and called out for the minor stuff like splatter/spray....etc.

                            stop whining about it guys. Its a sport. Stop trying to act like a wipe or bonus balling is a foul against humanity. There are much worse things that ppl cheat at aside from paintball. I dont see you complaining about that.

                            Comment

                            • Lohman446
                              Useful posts: 7
                              • Jun 2003
                              • 9315

                              #15
                              Originally posted by coreyander
                              penalties for cheating are sufficient. Points deductions, 2 for 1s, etc are effective. .
                              Have you actually played or watched a tournament lately? Or gone to dinner after with the guys who play? Calling current methods effective, at least around here, is ludicrous.

                              PS: I have yet to see evidence of the league financially penalizing a player after video review. Maybe it happens, but they sure do not do so publically, as opposed to the fines handed out by other "real" sports.
                              "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

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