Now and then and ancient history

[Aggravated Assault]

Right out of an old article in "paintball news"

It was comparing now (96') to then (mid to late eighties?)

            [U]Back then[/U]                                      [U]  1996[/U]


[I]Attendance:[/I]                24 teams                                  52
[I]Team size[/I]                    15                                      10
[I]Entry fee    [/I]               $1100 - $1500                         $1200 - $2200
[I]paint [/I]                         TPO                                   BYOP
[I]Cost(paint)[/I]                .06 to .15/ball                           .03 to .05/ball
[I]avg usage [/I]                 450/player/game                      450/player/game
[I]Days[/I]                        sat. thru mon.                           fri. thru sun
[I]Prize $$ [/I]                   $32,000 to $80,000                   $30,000 to $35,000
[I]events/year [/I]                3 to 5                                  10+ national events


[I]Guns [/I]                    Sniper, bushmaster,                     autococker,automag
                       Grey Ghost,Carter Comp,Piranha,
                        Vindicator,Teremite

[I]Loaders/feeders[/I]      10rd tube/stickfeed                    100 to 130rd tubes
                             40 rd hopper                      agitating hoppers

[I]Air[/I]                        12g/CA  Co2 systems             CA systems, High Pressure

[I]Leading Teams[/I]           Navarone, LoD, FL Terminators,       Ironmen, AA's, Aftershock, 
                             Gang Green, Wild Geese,         Rage, Bad Co, GBD, PB Pred.
                             PMI Piranhas,  LRRP's


 
[I]Rules[/I]    45 min games, return flag rule.                25 min games, "live" flag rule, 
            no field standards, three scoring systems   field size standards, 100 point
            in use: 4, 110 and 145 point.                   system

So, whats changed/stayed the same between long ago, WAY Long ago, and right now? Anyone want to plug some new numbers in for 2006? Add anything to the above list?

You know, I myself enjoy the fast paced action of todays games, but I have fond memories playin 10 man out in the big wood fields.

Just think of playing 15 man on some HUGE field in a 45 min game. Think of the different strategy and tactics on that scale. How bout being able to loose half your team on a push and still hold your side. Shifting a whole flank over to push the opposite. And those darn crawlers! That was almost an art form.



Makes me wish I discovered paintball earlier in life

[mag_lover05]

spiffy find...nice to see the comparisons of teams and guns and all that jazz

[Lomarandil]

You know, I myself enjoy the fast paced action of todays games, but I have fond memories playin 10 man out in the big wood fields.

Just think of playing 15 man on some HUGE field in a 45 min game. Think of the different strategy and tactics on that scale. How bout being able to loose half your team on a push and still hold your side. Shifting a whole flank over to push the opposite. And those darn crawlers! That was almost an art form.

Makes me wish I discovered paintball earlier in life

Actually.. look into the SPPL (www.scenariochallenge.com).. A very, very good way to play competive woodsball, great attitudes from everyone, loads of fun.. I played in the OK qualifier.. (In the pics, I'm the one standing behind a bunker with the launcher/98 combo).. and it was incredible.. and very similar to what you are describing..

Check it out..

Lo
Band of Brothers

[Aggravated Assault]

Actually.. look into the SPPL (www.scenariochallenge.com).. A very, very good way to play competive woodsball, great attitudes from everyone, loads of fun.. I played in the OK qualifier.. (In the pics, I'm the one standing behind a bunker with the launcher/98 combo).. and it was incredible.. and very similar to what you are describing..

Check it out..

Lo
Band of Brothers

Thats a pretty wild format.

In the rules section I really liked the " 5 point penalty each time a player calls a paintcheck on someone and they are clean" :)

I was thinking, whoever wrote the article put down paint usage at 450rds/game for both 15 man ball and 10 man (in 96'). I wonder if that avarage holds true today in 2006? I bet when you take all things into consideration, it may not be too far off.

[Caboose]

Navarone is definately my favorite team of all time. I remember finding an old Navarone jersey in the warehouse of one of the stores I work at... Greatest moment I've had there. Wouldn't let my keep it though

[Triangle]

Navarone is definately my favorite team of all time. I remember finding an old Navarone jersey in the warehouse of one of the stores I work at... Greatest moment I've had there. Wouldn't let my keep it though

I've got one too. I need to find it.
I got it from one of the guys because they closed up shop here in San Diego.



.......Guy was kind of a dick, though.

[Aggravated Assault]

Navarone is definately my favorite team of all time. I remember finding an old Navarone jersey in the warehouse of one of the stores I work at... Greatest moment I've had there. Wouldn't let my keep it though

That just reminded me of something....Paintball2extreme had an article last month on "20 myths in paintball". One of the "myths" was that Naverone was the best tournament team ever. They gave props to Naverone, but in the end kinda made it sound like "duh, Dynasty is a no brainer"

I kinda had to laugh. If they would have said most sucessful, most wins, or something like that, sure. BUT, they just said "best"

It's so easy (and arrogant) to fall into that trap thinking that somehow todays game is SO vastly superior to the game nearly two decades ago, it should be a foregone conclusion. I think not. The best teams of that era did what they did with the game as it was. Pushing the technology they had at the time, to the limit, to be sucessful.

If there was a time machine and you could drop Dynasty into a game w/ Naverone, I bet the outcome might be different than what the staff of Paintball2Extreme thinks. :)


PS: I am so jealous about both those jersey stories. Coolness :)

[rabidchihauhau]

that was my article in Paintball News.

Yes, surprisingly enough the AVERAGE BALL USAGE PER PLAYER PER GAME was still about the same in 96 as it was for 15 man.

Don't let that number fool you; 450 per player per game in 15 man days is 6,750 balls (3 point something cases, per game) and for ten player is 4500 (2.25 cases); BUT

15 man ball games were 1/2 to 1 hour in length back then (nationals dropped from 60 minutes to 45 minutes and then later to 30 minutes) - which works out to 150 balls per minute, while the ten player games went from 25 minutes to 15 minutes, and that ROF is 180 rounds per minute. If we assume that the same amount of paint is used per game today (and it still remains 450-550 per player per game except for x-ball) for 7 player - 3150 or 5 player - 2250 and the game only lasts 5 minutes then that works out to 450 - 630 rounds per minute.

Back then we played 6 or 8 prelim games and an equal number of finals-rounds games. If you played all the way through an event, you could expect to use about 15 to 20 cases for the prelims and the same for the finals: 15 players x 12 games x 450 rounds = 81,000 - or 40 of today's cases. Don't forget also that we used 2500 round cases back then, so that works out to about 32 and a half cases.

The major difference was the cost; back then, 32 cases ran about $4800 bucks; today, the same amount of paint $1800 bucks

Oh, and btw - Navarone was the world's first (or almost first) triple-crown winner - World Cup, Masters and I forget...maybe it was a Great Western event or maybe it was the RP Scherer championmship...

Comparing old-school winners to new-school winners is pretty futile; you're comparing TEAMS to Teams (a lot more coordination and command structure was necessary for 15 man) a lot longer length of time (45 minutes to 5 minutes - 9 times as long) on much larger fields (36000 square feet compared to multiple ACRES) with widely varying terrain and MUCH more cover - (which worked both for and against you) with typical ranges starting at 200 feet (versus 30 to 60 today), with paintballs that were heavier (better accuracy, better range) using guns that had a max rof of maybe 8 rounds per second - and due to stickfeed limitations, you couldn't maintain that for more than maybe 5 seconds at the outside...there are so many factors that have changed it really is an entirely different game. One BIG difference is the balance between moving and firing. Back then it was just about 50/50 whether moving or shooting was your best option. Today, its more like 90 (shooting) versus 10 (moving)...

[rabidchihauhau]

okay - here's a few more:

today - 450 - 550 rounds per player per game

markers - Ions, Egos, Timmies, Angels, Aliens, Qwests, ICD, Invert, etc

air systems - 4500 psi HPA (screw in/non-adjustable reg)

loaders - 180+ round forcefeed system

other - eyes, RF communications, bluetooth, MP3 players in grips :)

Other stuff:

15 man - army boots/jungle boots/hi-techs

'96 - 3/4 ankle softball/football cleats

today - mde for paintball shoes

15 man - goggles, maybe a half mask

'96 - $45 systems

today - almost $100 systems

15 man - uniforms were cammo - an unusual pattern if you could find it

'96 -= custom jersies, som pants made for pb

today - custom uniforms

15 man - hardly any padding

96 - knee/shin pads, elbow/forearm pads

today - padding integrated into uniforms, slider shorts, neck protectors, etc., etc

how about air supply comparisons

15 man ball - 12-grams: everyone learned where to get them at a discount, about .25 - .35 per cartridge. Towards the end, you could get about 45-50 good shots per cartridge, so you used about ten per player per game, or about 1800 and spent about $540.

Today, everyone (just about) uses 4500 psi systems at a cost of roughly $200 bucks per. Then they spend about $10 per player per event for fills - or about $70 bucks (plus about $40 per player for the year on the purchase of the system) or $350 (actually less because the $40 is for an entire year of events, figure you'll use it for 1 event per month - $3.50 per, so air costs are closer to $95.00 as compared to over five hundred

Now for something completely different.

Playing 15 man ball today using the previously discussed numbers:

$540 for 12 grams ($36 per player)
$1822.50 for paint (450 rounds per player per game at $45 per case) $121 per player

or

$157 per player for air and paint

compared to:

$850.50 for paint $121 per player
$70 for air $10 per player

$131 per player - a whopping $26 dollar difference

[Aggravated Assault]

that was my article in Paintball News.

:) Never expected that one. Small world I guess. :)

I find it interesting with your new numbers, that cost wise, playing a tournment today is still close regarding paint and air. Even with ramping and all that.

Plus, I totally agree tournaments then are a completely different animal compared to todays speedball. Impossible to compare teams fairly from different eras.

BTW, since you were the writer, what the heck kinda marker is a "Teremite". Thats the one I wasn't familar with.



PS: I miss 2500 rd. cases

[rabidchihauhau]

I probably spelled that wrong - its an Earon Carter 'production/custom' pump - wielded by the Master Blasters to great effect; it was one of the few guns that actually compared favorably to the LAPCO Gray Ghost, and contained most of the same features; it had a square breech housing that was ramped and shaped to that you could really auto-trigger that thing without fear of chopping.

I DON'T miss 1250 round bags with broken paint in them - at least now you only have to clean 500 rounds...

Yes, prices are still very close interestingly enough. The LEAST EXPENSIVE option would be pump guns with HPA - $1800 for paint, $150 for air - $1950 total; that would be $130 per player, plus entry fee.

One of the 'old' things not discussed were the numerous attempts at hosting 'limited paint' tournaments as a way to deal with cost. Great Western did it and so did the World Cup.

It was nice to know what the TOTAL cost for an event would be before you got there. If you did something like that for $200 or $250 per player, you'd have something like $350 to $1800 per team (5 player to 15 player, $70 to $120 over paint and air) to put towards referees, facilities and prizes.

That kind of starts to look attractive when its a flat fee of only $250 per player - although it would be a 15 player team entry of $3750 (scary number even if it does include air and paint). Compare that to NPPL entry of $1950 to $2250 PLUS your paint costs...

Ten teams would give you $18,000. 24 teams (average old school attendance) $43200; figure 4 fields and 8 refs per field at $150 per day - $9600 for prelims; $4800 for finals; leaving $28,800 for other expenses and cash prizes.

You could even get away with 3 fields, but man - look at those numbers....

is there any way to get 24 fifteen man teams to commit to an event? Drop the cash to 20k to leave plenty of dollars for other expenses, give 10k for first, 5k for 2nd, 3 for 3rd and 2 for 4th and you're actually talking about making a profit for 1st thru 3rd

but I ramble - we tried this a few years ago and it went nowhere...

[Aggravated Assault]

Thats some serious numbers there... :)


I remember the GWS. Didn't know that was limited paint events. I never played in any limited paint tourneys, but always thought the idea was good. Never knew the WC tried it either. Wonder if many try running it like that anymore...



I guess I liked the 2500 cases because when my field went to 2000 rounders, I was always needing to buy a couple hundred rounds to finish the day. Which sadly reminds me that I used to buy 500 rounds and it would last me all day, once upon a time...

[rkjunior303]

Wild Geese FTW!

John Necco coaches our team up here in Boston and we play out of the Geese's old field, Canobie.

[rabidchihauhau]

Canobie pb - played the Boston NPPL event there in 1993 - favorite field was the bowling alley.

We drew several teams on that field, most notable being Lords/Aftershock. Renick's boys were walking the field and we followed them onto it about ten minutes later and let's just say that we 'picked up after them'.

Let's also say that their assaults were a little off-kilter as someone had removed the road signs...

Mr. Necco I remember. His team gave me some grief at the NPPL Reno event in '93 (as in, yet anohter issue to deal with - not real trouble); we were using NAPRA referees some of whom had the 'they're pros and therefore we have to catch them cheating' attitude, which made it difficult; they also were handicapped by having been given the wrong rules (GWS rules, not NPPL rules); the Geese were in the midst of an altercation when I was called to the field; I personally witnessed one player grab his armband back from a referee, put it on and continue playing.

I have sympathy for the Geese in that situation - they were being hosed - but the rules and the situation dictated that they be penalized and they ended up getting two 'failure to obey referee instructions' and two 'unsporsmanlike conduct' penalties for ten points each, and an additional ten pointer for what I can't remember, for a total of -50 points, which pretty much knocked them out of the running.

Not the only time I frustrated the Geese; we drew them towards sundown in the Poconos and just happened to be wearing all black BDUs, making it impossible to see us in the dusk. All game long we had to keep ourselves from laughing as they would walk by complaining about having to search every shadow on the field...

[rkjunior303]

Canobie pb - played the Boston NPPL event there in 1993 - favorite field was the bowling alley.

We drew several teams on that field, most notable being Lords/Aftershock. Renick's boys were walking the field and we followed them onto it about ten minutes later and let's just say that we 'picked up after them'.

Let's also say that their assaults were a little off-kilter as someone had removed the road signs...

Mr. Necco I remember. His team gave me some grief at the NPPL Reno event in '93 (as in, yet anohter issue to deal with - not real trouble); we were using NAPRA referees some of whom had the 'they're pros and therefore we have to catch them cheating' attitude, which made it difficult; they also were handicapped by having been given the wrong rules (GWS rules, not NPPL rules); the Geese were in the midst of an altercation when I was called to the field; I personally witnessed one player grab his armband back from a referee, put it on and continue playing.

I have sympathy for the Geese in that situation - they were being hosed - but the rules and the situation dictated that they be penalized and they ended up getting two 'failure to obey referee instructions' and two 'unsporsmanlike conduct' penalties for ten points each, and an additional ten pointer for what I can't remember, for a total of -50 points, which pretty much knocked them out of the running.

Not the only time I frustrated the Geese; we drew them towards sundown in the Poconos and just happened to be wearing all black BDUs, making it impossible to see us in the dusk. All game long we had to keep ourselves from laughing as they would walk by complaining about having to search every shadow on the field...

my how paintball has changed... canobie has tried to get an old-school woodsball tournament going but just couldn't get the interest. Bowling alley still exists! It's a lot of fun to play. Necco is also coaching NYX with Rosie (or at least was last season). I assume he'll be back with them this year along with helping us out when he can.