Why are blowbacks "low end"?

[Pneumagger]

Its not that I neccesarily disagree with what you are saying, as I said I was playing Devil's Advocate. In spite of being a well designed marker for accomplishing its task, I don't think even a well made "clone" could be considered a high end marker. I can't off the top of my head even think of a company making a high end blowback. Does Palmer make one? What is a Blazer?....anyway...
I spent a great deal of money putting "high end" parts into a Milly years ago, but it still never made the marker high end, just made it perform nearer to it.

blazer = a beautiful handmade autococker.

"High end" is perception. Consumers often use price, not preformance, to gauge high end. Most would agree that Porches are indeed "High End". What about the 944? It's a very cheap Porche - still fast, and still a "Porshe"... but most people will not consider the Porche 944 a "high end automobile"

What about a Subaru WRX STi vs. a Lamhorghini Countach? Most would agree that one is "high end" and the other is not. However the Subaru is faster, more reliable, tougher, cheaper, etc.

The point is that perception is what determines classification. Had most any gun been introduced with a couple 100 more on the pricetag, then they would be "high end". Heck, look even the proto matrices are $1000 anymore.

[mclaggan123]

it all comes down to marketing. if a sponsor makes a gun and has there pro team use it then all of a sudden everyone and there brother wants the new "high end pro gun". i have guys on my team that have a $200 ion thats rips just as fast and just as accurate as my dark g7 fly. its just like any other product, if you market it the right way and to the right people it can be sold for lots of money and be considered high end goods. yes some markers are made better than others and yes some last longer than others but as long as there's a demand for $1000 markers then there will be a supply. i own mags,angels,cockers and a shocker and i like them all, but the angels,cocker, and the mags i didnt have to change anything to make them efficiant and reliable. i wish i could say the same for the shocker. you can take a talon and find someone who will think its high end and an angel and find someone who thinks its low end. in other words its all in how you look at it.

[wjr]

Its not that I neccesarily disagree with what you are saying, as I said I was playing Devil's Advocate. In spite of being a well designed marker for accomplishing its task, I don't think even a well made "clone" could be considered a high end marker. I can't off the top of my head even think of a company making a high end blowback. Does Palmer make one? What is a Blazer?....anyway...
I spent a great deal of money putting "high end" parts into a Milly years ago, but it still never made the marker high end, just made it perform nearer to it.

There may not be any company's nowadays making "high-end" blowbacks, but there have been some made in the past. Some would consider the air power vector high end.

[minimag03]

There may not be any company's nowadays making "high-end" blowbacks, but there have been some made in the past. Some would consider the air power vector high end.

Or more recently the Sentinals.

[zenderfall]

I asked this same question over on MCB, and got some interesting answers.

I figure I'll post it here to get some more educated responses (not saying the guys on MCB are stupid).

So, why are blowback markers considered "Low end"? Is there something inherent in the blowback system that makes markers less accurate or inconsistent? Or is it just because they are cheap to make, and most are made using low quality parts?

Actually the answer to this lies in physics.

Blowback markers use a hammer to open a valve which diverts air TWO ways:one way to propel the paintball and the other way to slam the hammer back into position, essentially "recocking" it.

The inconsistencies come into play when you ask, how MUCH air is used to propel the ball, and how much is used to direct the hammer-the answer? It varies with every shot. The spring is not perfect, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, all changes and therefore even if you have regulators, N2 tanks, double, or even triple regulators on a blowback gun each pull of the trigger will divert a different amount of air onto the paintball and the hammer. each slight difference in output air will translate into a ball veering slightly left, right, up, or down, and, compounded with barrel and ball physics, makes the inconsistency worse. No matter how much you try to control the barrel, paintballs, venturi bolts, and even regulators, that simple valve that directs air two ways will be the bane of the blowback gun.

Tom Kaye solved the problem using a "blow forward" design and Bud Orr I believe solved it using a pumpgun with "automatic cocking" mechanism. I've played paintball since the late 80's and have owned over 15 different guns, including relics like the 68-Special and PMI-3, I've always been on a hunt to figure out "why" things are the way they are and blowback guns will always be this way-they were then and are now-inconsistent.

Yet its very simple design can be produced in mass numbers-blowback designs don't need regulators, have a mechanism that was designed in the late 80's and they work well with even liquid CO2-an old gun of mine even has a "syphon tank" (not anti-siphon) and loves liquid CO2. Durable? Yes. Cheap? Yes. Consistent? No.

Put an electronic trigger on the blowback and you get a fast shooting, inconsistent marker with the price tag of an accurate blow-forward marker. While I don't say much about speed, I can say the gun does not shoot any more consistent.

Expensive, accurate guns are expensive because they need regulators and use a more complex design to make each shot consistent. If you ever wondered what accounts for the high cost of the automag, it's mostly the regulator-an industry air regulator modified for paintball guns. The rest is just fabricated aluminum and bolts-essentially what a blowback gun can cost.

[Pneumagger]

Actually the answer to this lies in physics.

No bill nye.

I don't see how the lack of regulator makes it low end. They can be very consistent if you set them up to be and they are a quality blowback. So If I put a reg on a spyder and it's consistent it's now high end? Or better yet, the Spydre VS2 is High end?

[zenderfall]

They can be very consistent if you set them up to be and they are a quality blowback.?

I don't think so. Actually, I know that doesn't work. adding a regulator to a blowback does nothing for the air split. This problem led to gun developments in the 90's like the 68 Automag and Autococker. Ask Tom-I'll bet he can tell you better than I can.

So If I put a reg on a spyder and it's consistent it's now high end?

No, you now have a blowback marker with a reg on it. You still have not solved the inconsistency problem INHERENT in a blowback action marker.

[hs2000]

I disagree, I think blowbacks are low end, but not because their inconsistent.
I started with a few very consistent blowbacks.

This "split air" is bull, does the air get confused? is it like a squirrel trying to cross the road?

[zenderfall]

I disagree, I think blowbacks are low end, but not because their inconsistent.
I started with a few very consistent blowbacks.

This "split air" is bull, does the air get confused? is it like a squirrel trying to cross the road?

Take apart a blowback (if you have one) and observe the path the air travels from the tank to where it hits the paintball. You'll notice some of it is diverted to the hammer to allow the hammer to recock.

Then take apart a blowforward gun (again, if you have one) or an Autococker and look at how it works.

Want to try a real-deal test? Mount all these types of guns in a controlled environment. Hard mount them to a concrete block, then use calipers and gauge 1000 paintballs each. Connect nitrogen tanks on each gun. Match each gun with the proper barrels to the paint, and fire 1000 rounds from each gun at a spot 25, 50, and 100 feet. That will show you inconsistency.

I'm pretty sure you did not do this to find out if your gun was "pretty consistent" My guess is you played some ball out back with your gun maybe a few times out of the week, or month, or year, and said, "Yeah I think it's pretty acc'rate"

If you think your blowback is consistent I'm not going to argue with you-what you said is subjective. Perhaps the air is not the squirrel-I think you are. Find the road yet?

[emumikey]

Actually the answer to this lies in physics.

Blowback markers use a hammer to open a valve which diverts air TWO ways:one way to propel the paintball and the other way to slam the hammer back into position, essentially "recocking" it.

The inconsistencies come into play when you ask, how MUCH air is used to propel the ball, and how much is used to direct the hammer-the answer? It varies with every shot. The spring is not perfect, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, all changes and therefore even if you have regulators, N2 tanks, double, or even triple regulators on a blowback gun each pull of the trigger will divert a different amount of air onto the paintball and the hammer. each slight difference in output air will translate into a ball veering slightly left, right, up, or down, and, compounded with barrel and ball physics, makes the inconsistency worse. No matter how much you try to control the barrel, paintballs, venturi bolts, and even regulators, that simple valve that directs air two ways will be the bane of the blowback gun.

Tom Kaye solved the problem using a "blow forward" design and Bud Orr I believe solved it using a pumpgun with "automatic cocking" mechanism. I've played paintball since the late 80's and have owned over 15 different guns, including relics like the 68-Special and PMI-3, I've always been on a hunt to figure out "why" things are the way they are and blowback guns will always be this way-they were then and are now-inconsistent.

There is a flaw in your argument here, I believe. If what you claim about air flow is true, than the automag and autococker would have the same problem with consistency.

The amount of air reaching the paintball in an automag would be affected by the bolt spring.

The amount of air reaching the paintball in an autococker would be affected by the valve spring.

Springs are a funny thing. They can be engineered to perform the same with every cycle, regardless of how the variation of airflow may affect them (and all of the other factors you listed, i.e. temperature.

However, I doubt that much engineering goes into any of the springs used in paintball markers. From a cost perspective, its just not feasible.

My $.02

[zenderfall]

The amount of air reaching the paintball in an automag would be affected by the bolt spring.

Not true. The amount of air reaching the paintball in an automag is not affected by the bolt spring because the bolt spring is used to send the bold "backward" to recock the bolt, not forward. The amount of air is consistent because 100% the air coming from the regulator is used to send the paintball forward.

[zenderfall]

The amount of air reaching the paintball in an autococker would be affected by the valve spring.

While this may be true, one thing is certain-there is a consistent, fixed amount of air used to propel the paintball in an autococker. Variances in each shot from the valve spring are nowhere as inconsistent as a blowback system.

[Lenny]

...Tom Kaye solved the problem using a "blow forward" design and Bud Orr I believe solved it using a pumpgun with "automatic cocking" mechanism...

I think you mean Glen Palmer. Bud Orr just kind of copied Palmer's design.

I'm not going to argue any facts or points (simply because I don't have enough to argue with; I'm going off of pure speculation), but my old Spyder Compact Model B was one of the best guns I have ever owned. Seriously. There was a very small amount of kick (comparable to a Lvl. 7 'Mag) and worked wonders off of CO2, and even better when I upgraded to N2 (right after I got my first 'Mag). The consistancy wasn't bad. Somewhere around +/-10fps on un-reg'd CO2, and around +/-4 on reg'd N2. I don't think that's bad. In fact, I still have the gun and an old Spyder Sprint frame. I still use it from time to time, and I still enjoy it.

In my opinion, Tippmanns are also great blowback designs. Though I don't like the length of many of them, I will never insult them.

Anyone remember the Mega Z? I loved those guns. Quite possibly the best shooting blowback to have ever existed (in my opnion).

...Like I said, this is all just my own speculation.

[RRfireblade]

While this may be true, one thing is certain-there is a consistent, fixed amount of air used to propel the paintball in an autococker. Variances in each shot from the valve spring are nowhere as inconsistent as a blowback system.

Eh , nonsence. Your whole percpetion in fact , with all due respect.

You can't compare and/or make assumptions on whats happening inside a sloppy built (done so on purpose in most cases for reliablilty and manufacturing ease) low quality , cheap graded parts , inexpensive import VS a US made 'high end' marker.

You have no way of guessing whats causeing anything and no basis to make the claims you have.

Where not talking about a $69 spyder Vs a Mag , we're talking about design Vs designs.

Anyone whose ever had the chance to hand fit and assemble a quality blow back will tell you that they can and will go head to head or exceed most any other design on the market today bases on raw performance.

Recoil can be as low as any other
ROF can easily exceed any other
Operating pressure in the 2-300 if so desired
Size and weight , same story
And efficiency right there and beyond what's acceptable of the average 'high ends' available today.

Beyond that and purely bias perception , what's left ?

[buzzboy]

On Kick
From what I have seen Autocockers have about the least kick of any gun I have shot(EP's, blowbacks and mags included). If you have a well timed autococker the back block moving back will counter act the force of the ball moving forward nullifying almost all kick produced by the gun shooting.

My automag had a little bit of kick. More than the cocker but it was very low. Mainly I think this though because I had a 10 lbs+ mag setup so nothing was felt.

Most EP's like DM's, Ego's and my Viking seem to have about the same kick with my vike at the higher end and the DM's at the low end of kick back. Probably due to the operating pressure of the described guns.

The shocker I shot had the most kick of any high end I ever shot. I admit that it was a stock shocker but that is no excuse. With the way I shoot (left hand on ASA and right shooting) there was very noticible kick back. I noticed that on strings of around 30 balls only the first 15 hit the target and the second half were above the persons head.

A standard blowback on kick wasn't bad at all. And I must say that there is a big difference between stacked tube and inline blow backs. The Single tube has way less kick. My tippmann P/C and all other tippy's and the stingray's I have shot seemed to have way less kick than stacked tube blowbacks. I think this is because on a stack tube the main reciprocating mass is higher up and therefore creates a kind of lever(visualize this) that puts more strain on ones hand. On the inline blowback the movement is all down close to where the gun is held so less if felt.

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On ROF
From what I have seen and shot some guns seem to do better than others in the ROF department. As we all know Mags have a bolt system that allows them to fire up into the mid thirty's without shootdown. That is great but unnessasary. Though it is nice to know that the gun has way more potential that you will ever use.

I really don't know the rate at which autocockers will start having problems. Though from what I have seen they will only really fire balls without shootdown into the upper 20's. Again this is a very reassuring fact.

Your standard spool valve gun such as a newer DM/PM has a bolt system that can sustain fire up into realms that aren't even possbile because of the solinoid that must be used to drive them. At the moment I am pretty sure that agian these guns make it up into the upper 20's.

I have never actually seen a stack tube EP max out but I know that the valve design will start shooting down, like all others, in the upper 20's into the low 30's (33 on a vike tested with paint).

In ROF is where Blowbacks really start to have problems. I have seen both tippy's and spyders that can shoot up to 15. That is the problem. Between about 15 and 20 blowbacks uncock. Some lower end ones uncocke even lower. This is a real hastle. When an EP or high end Mech hits its limit it will continue shooting but not go faster or it will start getting shootdown. The fact that a blowback will actually uncock makes them very annoying. I tryed shooting a rocking trigger spyder and I couldn't get the stupid thing to go past a certain speed without uncocking. That got really annoying.

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Well built-ness
In this category I have seen that automags do just fine. I have only actually handled one mag in my life but it was great and had no places where I felt that AGD had gyped me.

From what I have seen of WGP products cockers are built to very close guidlines. Everyone I have seen has been flawless.

As of yet the only EP I have seen that seemed a little cheap was the Ion and BKO. Both perform great but seem to me to be a little less quality than the higher models from their manufacturers. The higher end models though have superb build quality.

Again the blowbacks seem to be a little lowly. The build quality so far that I have seen is a little less than that of the others I mentioned. Really I just see stuff like spyders having problems recocking, improperly shaped parts(none of which stopped gun from working) and just feeling cheap in my hands.


Wow, I wrote a lot. I hope what I said helps the argument. I didn't realize how much I had typed.

\if only I could write school stuff like that.