Why?

[CKY_Alliance]

Because everyone on AO(except a few) know the truth.

...It takes no skill to ramp. Its a triple tap. 3 pulls. The rest is all computer. Since when did 3 trigger pulls qualify as having skill?

...It takes little skill to point a ramping marker. So little skill, that everyone can point. I didnt know that pointing was a really hard skill to master?



In a shooting sport, the skill of shooting is a requisite skill. Having to pull the trigger, for every pull, requires more skill than not. Which is true whether its a bouncing mag or a ramping electro.

It takes less skill to:

1) Shoot a ramping electro than it does a semi-electro.
2) Shoot a semi-electro than it does a semi-mechanical.
3) Shoot a semi-mechanical than it does to shoot an Auto-Trigger pump.
4) Shoot an Auto-Trigger pump than a non-AT pump.

And tapping a trigger takes Oh so much skill developement(since you want to look at things so simplyu)in reality: learning to walk the trigger can take some time, as can learning to "point" the gun accuratley....soo after tapping the trigger a few times the computer moves for you, "aims" for you, and communicates..wow what marker are you shooting?


ok it's a "shooting sport" so shooting is a requisite..doesn't shooting include pulling the trigger and Pointing the gun? So your ramping..you still pull the trigger and you still have to point the gun..so how does ramping take away from it being a shooting sport, or make it any easier of a sport?


If you pull the trigger 3 times or 60 times..you still posess the skill of pulling a trigger...

[Big Boy]

Ramping takes skill out of it in many ways, but one particularly...the ability to handle a gun. "So you aren't good enough to walk a trigger? Lets just electrically fix that."

Part of your skill is the ability to fire your gun, I have never used anything but straight semi...when I even use a semi...

Next thing you know we are going to have electric bats in baseball because the guy couldn't swing hard enough to hit a homer...

[mag_lover05]

i thought the same thing...im just to lazy to reply to all that.

[RogueFactor]

And tapping a trigger takes Oh so much skill developement(since you want to look at things so simplyu)in reality: learning to walk the trigger can take some time, as can learning to "point" the gun accuratley....soo after tapping the trigger a few times the computer moves for you, "aims" for you, and communicates..wow what marker are you shooting?

ok it's a "shooting sport" so shooting is a requisite..doesn't shooting include pulling the trigger and Pointing the gun? So your ramping..you still pull the trigger and you still have to point the gun..so how does ramping take away from it being a shooting sport, or make it any easier of a sport?

If you pull the trigger 3 times or 60 times..you still posess the skill of pulling a trigger...

Short-stroking happens for a reason my friend. Humans dont pull the trigger the same way every time. Its called trigger discipline. And its an acquired skill.

No matter how you cut it, ramping doesnt require skill. You can try to justify it all you want in your mind, it just doesnt.

One pull/release, one shot. Anything else is not the player shooting. And THATs how it takes away from it being a shooting sport...when the player isnt doing the shooting.

[CKY_Alliance]

Short-stroking happens for a reason my friend. Humans dont pull the trigger the same way every time. Its called trigger discipline. And its an acquired skill.

No matter how you cut it, ramping doesnt require skill. You can try to justify it all you want in your mind, it just doesnt.

One pull/release, one shot. Anything else is not the player shooting. And THATs how it takes away from it being a shooting sport...when the player isnt doing the shooting.

Short-stroking...short-stroking happens on mags and slider frame'd cockers....Now your changing the skill set on me..first its pulling the trigger now its trigger discipline? and no they are not the same thing...

ramping may not require skill ill agree with you there,but it doesn't take away from the difficulty of the game...and how much skill does pulling a trigger really take anyway..i mean come on..


But the player is doing the shooting...just not all of the shots..they are still pulling the trigger and they are still aiming..which is shooting...aiming and then pulling the trigger in order to eject a projectile twards a target...

[mag_lover05]

roguefactor...play a game in the PSP...then tell me that ramping means you have skill. just because you use ramping doesnt mean you are some arrogant **** who thinks that he has a ton of skill and doesnt really have any and just ramps. i know GREAT players personally who cant walk the trigger fast at all, but are dynomite on the field, they are fast, agile, fearless, great all around players and have great attitudes. the one thing that lets them be on par with everyone in the PSP (where they play) is ramping. if it was semi, so many great athletes wouldnt be able to play.

[RogueFactor]

Short-stroking...short-stroking happens on mags and slider frame'd cockers....Now your changing the skill set on me..first its pulling the trigger now its trigger discipline? and no they are not the same thing...

Right...when you pull the trigger

Play semantics all you want. Trigger discipline is how the trigger is pulled. And includes all the subset skills required to hit a target accurately, including aiming. Trigger discipline is taught in firearms training and sports shooting, of all kinds.

But the player is doing the shooting...just not all of the shots.

Then a player isnt doing the shooting. Its all or nothing. There isnt a shade of grey for this. Either the player fired the marker, or the computer did. In ramping mode, its the computer.

they are still pulling the trigger and they are still aiming..which is shooting...aiming and then pulling the trigger in order to eject a projectile twards a target...

Wow. Cool. You can triple tap and point. And you wonder why so many AO'ers think that it takes no skill to shoot someone with a ramping marker.

[RogueFactor]

i know GREAT players personally who cant walk the trigger fast at all, but are dynomite on the field, they are fast, agile, fearless, great all around players and have great attitudes. the one thing that lets them be on par with everyone in the PSP (where they play) is ramping.

Come on. Think about what you just said...

So should we remove all the requisite skills of baseball so Michael Jordan can play? You know, because he is a dynomite athlete that is fast, agile, fearless, great all around player and has a great attitude. We should lower the skills required to play baseball because there are great athletes out there that want to play it.

Seriously? Is that what you are suggesting?

if it was semi, so many great athletes wouldnt be able to play.

Then they arent great athletes in the sport of paintball. They lack 1 of the 2 rudimentary skills this sport requires.

[REDRT]

There is plenty of variety in paintball. You don't have to use ramping or an e-marker period if you don't want to and it's fine if you do. It is pointless to argue. There is aspects of the game for everyone to have fun in their own way and with others that share the same interests. To each his own and respect other players in what they choose. My $.02

[BD_Paintball]

as a person who uses semi b/c we play semi in college, when we practice sometimes i will put my ramping on my proto and its a lot easer to shoot people. i can shoot in the 12-15 range when i walk my gun( yes its legal). i guess when you ramp you dont have to move your hand as much so you aim better at long range. you also have a constant stream of 15 coming out of your gun. you dont have to go back behind your bunker to reload. just shoot with one hand and load with the other while you are shooting. i guess when i use ramping i can think more about what is going on around me which allows me to play better and shoot more people. its much easer to shoot with one hand at one spot and head check another to see if there is a shot.

[mag_lover05]

REDRT we know everyone has there own opinions and everyone has them set in stone. its just fun to talk about.

rougue, i mean they are great athletes in paintball, they can tuck in extremely tight, they shoot with PERFECT posture, can dive, slide perfectly. the only thing they cant do is walk the trigger fast while do that.... wich is actuallly difficult to do. bassically, ramping allows you to focus more on moving than pulling the trigger consistantly. less to think about. keeps the game fast paced and action packed.

pumps are alike...except slower and not as action packed. still fast and lets you focus on moving...but less paint.

[p8ntbal4me]

Wow...

Im going to answer your questions,.. but its very clear after your response that you didnt even read my post. If you did,.. you would see that in the very first question I explained my point. Very first question you asked:

CKY_Alliance: "where were you going with this?"

Well I used the NPPL and the PSP today to EXPLAIN how players have changed the way they play BECAUSE OF THE SERIES OF TOURNEY THEY PLAY,.... NOT THE FACT THAT THEY ALLOW A FIRE MODE. You OBVIOUSLY missed that, and that I praised the tourny scene for making the game evolve a player and NOT a firing mode.

CKY_Alliance: "How does it damage the image? Most "outsiders" see/hear ramping and it amazes them, for some new players it scares them,but they have already chosen to play so they are not so much outsiders.. "

Because we all have to start some place. Seriously tell me that you just jumped into tourney play without ever being young and owning basic equipment. Tell me that, and everyone on here will call you a liar (no, Im not calling you a liar,... dont even know you). Take a player like,... umm,.. Olie Lang,... I dont know how old he is,.. but he didnt just get up one morning and instead of playing some rec-ball or whatever after his fisrt day out, he bought a EGO/DM whatever (I really dont know what he shoots) and start making head lines because he was BORN to play tourney. And Im not saying that RAMPING made him the player he is. Hes a good player bcause he EVOLVED into that player. I had to get my start just like everyone else,.... playing CFOA for 3 years was not for me,... too expensive and time consuming. But I had played my first game at age 11, then the second at 12, and continued like that till I was 14,... then I REALLY started to play. You think as a parent, knowing NOTHING ABOUT PAINTBALL only that you shoot people with a gun, seeing a breakout happen and 10 guns shooting in ramp, you think a mother watching that droppng off her kid would like her son to be invloved in that type of play on the first day??? No. Its good in the sense that the kid thinks they are "full auto" and that they want guns like that, and they want to play, etc. I think RAMPING is good in that sense because it draws interest in main stream media (EPSN PSP Series on TV) to focus on our sport. I think its bad because parents dont want to see their kid get shot 15-30 times like that. It has its goods and its bads.

CKY_Alliance: "Interesting, most people would argue the opposite,that it makes the bad players on a level playing field with the good players,atleast for trigger speed."

I agree because you no longer have to focus on the gun,.... now its all about the team. If your teamate to teamate communication sucks on the field,.. well,... you know what happens. Thats why I agree with you on the ramping in this aspect. Dont take me all "RAMPING IS BAD, RAMPING IS THE DEVIL" because I dont. I do see the value in EVERY detail we have in the sport. I also see that it would be MORE of a challenge to make a player rely on the marker as well as the teamates he plays with. Its an opinion,.. we agree to disagree.

CKY_Alliance: "ummm...ok..the player not ramping is shooting faster..what's your point because I have somehow missed it"

You missed it because you didnt read the statement. I know you didnt because only in the paragraph BELOW did I mention BPS cap. The statement you "missed the point to" was a relationship between ramping by code and ramping by ELECTRONIC BOUNCE. Read it again,... its all there. They both achived the same max ROF,... one used ramping, the other used electronic switch bounce.

CKY_Alliance: "Are you aware that all guns have mechanics and are capable of mecanical bounce..there for you I would not get mad because your "mechanical" gun with a electronic frame is faster then my "Ego"...Your not posting to answer my question your posting to try and make Mags out to be the Ultimate gun..which no one cares..go post in one of the other 800 "mags are so awsome" threads..which if thats your opinion then so be it. "

Lol,.. okay. So are YOU aware that all electronic guns have electronic bounce? You missed the point again. Both guns had the same limitation on max ROF allowed. Both guns were allowed to USE A METHOD NOT BASED ON THE ACTUAL SPEED OF THE PLAYERS FINGERS. Hence, thats what ramping and bounce are,.... The point was to show you that the guns were (based on the rules of the test) allowed to run out a max BPS of 40 IF the GUN could achive it. The "Mag" CAN achive a ROF of 37BPS,.... the "EGO" can not. Fine,.. to proove that Im not making the mag out to be the BEST GUN EVA,.. I will put down the EGO with A DIFFERENT GUN,.... The AKA Viking CAN achive a max BPS of 35BPS,.... the EGO CANT!!!!!!!! You happy now??? I guess you didnt see the part at the bottm where I said I use other guns than mags,... but SINCE THIS IS A MAG FORUM,... I chose to use that one for an example.

CKY_Alliance: "Are they? Wait what does it matter..the question wasn't whats the fastest gun?"

Yes,.. they are the fastest gun on the market. No,.. it wasnt the point. The question was why does the features of one gun make it okay to use in a tourney but another guns features not okay. What I mean is look at todays electronic programming. Common registry settings FOR ALL MAKES OF BOARDS are: Fire Mode, Max ROF, Dwell, Debounce (mech and elec). Because the EGO has these features and the mag doesnt,... why do you think mags are not allowed but the EGO is. Here is the OTHER point you missed. Stated earlier,... GAME PLAY EVOLVES. So in saying that, the market must evolve with the game,.. right? I mean,.. makers of boards, guns, accessories arent in this for the thrill of it,... they are in it to make money. So let me put it like this,... forget the EGO. Lets go with an E-cocker (e-bladed, raced, whatever you know best) and an E-Mag. The cocker and the mag are going to have mechanical bounce, and electronic bounce,.. do you agree? It is because of these guns firing the way they do that a pannel of people say "Wait a minute,... players arent actually pulling the trigger that fast,.. they are using the gun to work the trigger to "bounce". So they make a rule, in the interest of safety or fairness (just pick one) stating that the guns must not fire in such a way that they bounce. That you, the player, must pull your trigger so you can earn the BPS you want to fire. So,.. umm,.. tell me again,.. why that is ANY different than ramping. Because Im pretty sure that RAMPING means you dont actually shoot 15BPS,.. the computer says "well,... your almost there,.. so heres a couple more balls to put you where you need to be."

CKY_Alliance: "Umm ok...I think if uncapped ramping or full auto is allowed..i don't think they are going to care what your Mech mag is doing.. "

Then explain why an E-Mag with PSP loaded software is deemed as "mechanical bounce illegal" dude. Explain why bouncing ANY trigger on ANY gun with PSP software capped is illegal. You dont make any point here,......

CKY_Alliance: "Umm they can't? why wouldn't they boycott it...they are capping the E-guns at 15 because it is intintional adding of shots, oh wait cranking up your air input is the same thing.. "

They cant because THATS THEIR JOB,.. they get paid to play. What, you think Olie Lang is still gonna get a check from Virute if he switched to a Taedo board? They are capping e-guns at 15 because its adding intentional adding of shots??? What? I think you dont know what your talking about for one,.. and what I think you ment to say if you knew was that they are capping e-guns at 15 because of the force of a string of paintballs consentrated in the head in the amont of 15 shots in 1 second would not cause a player to become unconcious but more than that would (they did studies on this based on mask/lens impact, force applied to induce head trama, etc) Cranking up the input pressure on a gun doesnt give you more added shots,.. (shaking my head),.. it allows a quicker response time for the valve chamber to "fill" again so the marker can be ready to fire. What do yo think happens when you are almost out of air and you are shooting fast? The guns string of paint starts to drop off (hence the name "drop off") If youstop shooting for a second,... then rip again,.. a few balls will fly good and far, but then the other will start to drop off. Same thing with pressure input,... if the gun isnt at its operational input pressure it wil not function the way the manufacturer intends to market it as. (you honestly think an EGO would sell good if it came set with a pressure that after a string of 15 balls it started to drop off? Mags need (depending on the version) anywhere from 600-800 psi to operate the way the manufacturer intended. Boosting the pressure only allows the valve on a mag to recharge quicker, hence why the mag is cappable of firing FASTER than the EGO. You take the EGO frame right off the gun,.. rig it up so it will trip the sear of a mag and fire the gun with the EGO frame on it,... the mag will do the SAME EXACT THING. Its not the rampig that gives a gun its speed, its the mechanics. Ramping is both a benefit and a hinderance. It benefits the players ability to achive a certain programmed BPS but it is only hindered by the mechanics of the gun. <------ here you are just picking on mags because you dont want to be wrong.

Forget guns and look at loaders. Why you think companies like Empire, VL, etc list the loaders as having 35BPS, 32+BPS,.. but they dont tell you that those numbers are free falling rate and in little print on the inside of the manuals (also found on the information of after market board makers) stating "BPS limited only my the mechanics of the marker/loader" Heres the link for the WAS Viking Board (look under the "Technical information about the Equalizer" section)

If you cant follow the link,... here is what it says: "Rate of fire: limited only by the pneumatics. Approximately 40+bps." <------- wow,.. thats fast,.. but wait a minute,... im a mag lover and EGO hater,.. why would I proove that the mag is not the fastest gun? Probley because of the truth in the statement on the WAS web page!


CKY_Alliance: "Well they would be "un-safe" seeing how they are not controlled like the capped ramping guns."
Again,... why is the mag the exception to the rule. Emags have PSP software in them,... they can be capped. So if they can be capped and they can bounce,... can I use it????? No. Dude Ive been there with an E-Mag when they came out,.... Refs hover over ANYTHING AGD on the field. You think a tourney player wants a judge on top of him the entire series,.....................??????????????

CKY_Alliance: "See above, and my goodness you come up with the most random..off topic **** "
Off the topic,...? Your telling me that Smart Parts put 17 patent extentions on their PVI Shocker Patent souly for "the betterment of the sport"? Paaaa-leeeease! THEY WANT MONEY! Im not off topic at all,... ur just not liking that Im taking a stance in EVERY field of the sport and not just,.... "RAMPING IS GOOD CAUSE I DONT OWN A MAG,.. RAMPING IS BAD BECAUSE I OWN A MAG" Come down to the place we call "market america" and sit for a session. Like I said,.... take electronic guns out of the loop all together,... whats left for fast guns????? The cocker,... been there. The Mag,.. been there. So one or the other,.... well,... cockers are fast,.. and they can rock a trigger about 20 BPS if you know what your doing. A Mag,... holy crap! A mag can fire 37BPS with no skill????? Ill take that!!! So I say again,... why is RAMPING skill but BOUNCING not??!!

CKY_Alliance: "Ramping is the cheap way out,but bounce is just fine? Huh...explain that to me please, oh wait numerous mag owners have tried justifying that numerous times."

Ill explain it again seeing how your not reading my posts anyways. Ramping is allowed, bouncing is not. Emags can bounce and the ROF can be capped. EGOS can ramp and the ROF be capped. Both guns can be capped, both require no skill so says you that all mag people say. So,... again,..... bouncing Illegal,.. ramping legal. RAMPING = SKILL / BOUNCING = NO SKILL? What you mean is,.... RAMPING = PERMITTED BECAUSE ELECTRONIC GUNS OTHER THAN AGD CAN BE MODIFIED AND MARKETED THAT WAY / BOUNCE = REQUIRES NO OUTSIDE AFTERMARKET ASSISTANCE THEREFORE AFTERMARKET BOARDS SALES (for example) MAKE ZERO DOLLARS!

If you dont think for one second that gun companies are in the tourney events to make money,... you need to stay on the AO more and get off PBN. Why do you think WAS is sueing the PSP and millenium series for false pretenses based on documented rules and regultions? WAS wrote software in compliance to the PSP rules. They have documented PROOF that the PSP was going to use cetain modes of fire,... and that RAMPIGN was unsafe and did not provide a positive image for the future of the sport. All of the sudden,.. PSP makes new rules and allowes ramping. Now why do you think they would do that?? Disregard a previous notion about safety and promote ramping,... hmmm,... money maybe??? Boards look more flashy and more marketable? PSP draws money for events by allowing fire modes intergraded by aftermarket board makers???? Naaaahhw!

You come to a specific gun forum and ask a question,.. then you want to flame me because I used the name of the gun marker hosts this forum for??

I didnt flame you,... I made examples and points. You asked a question,.. and I AGREED with you right off the top of why I thought RAMPING was good for the sport. I didnt need to defend RAMPING because it was obvious that you were PRO ramping in some ways and that you saw it as skill required in the game andnot what you called "everyone on here calling ramping no skill". Well I hate to burst ur bubble dude but I play pick up with a local team, I run an 06 Shocker SFT and I RAMP!!!!! why,.. because its in the rules that we can,.. and I want to play on th same level as my teamates when I do. Does that mean that I have less skill?? Yes and No. I made my points of my thoughts on ramping and why I thought it brings skill into the game and takes from it.

You read my post and got mad,... and decided to flame me because I made valid points and used a gun in an example that slapped me into the "mags are the best,.. everything else sucks" catagory. You don know me,.. and I dont know you. So dont talk to me on here like you KNOW what I was saying and that everything I say was an attack on you. If I didnt agree with you in the first place on the matter in some ways,.. do you think I would have said that ramping was okay or that I ramp as well????

But what I DO know,.. is that next time you come on here to slam someones opinion,.... you better come to class with some paper and a pencil, sit down, and listen because you obviously need to go back to school and learn a thing or two other than how many trigger pulls it takes to get ur "EGO" (pun TOTALLY intended!) into RAMP!

[RogueFactor]

i guess when you ramp you dont have to move your hand as much so you aim better at long range. you also have a constant stream of 15 coming out of your gun. you dont have to go back behind your bunker to reload. just shoot with one hand and load with the other while you are shooting. i guess when i use ramping i can think more about what is going on around me which allows me to play better and shoot more people. its much easer to shoot with one hand at one spot and head check another to see if there is a shot.

Precisely. Everything else becomes easier when you remove the skill of shooting from a shooting sport.

rougue, i mean they are great athletes in paintball, they can tuck in extremely tight, they shoot with PERFECT posture, can dive, slide perfectly. the only thing they cant do is walk the trigger fast while do that.... wich is actuallly difficult to do. bassically, ramping allows you to focus more on moving than pulling the trigger consistantly. less to think about. keeps the game fast paced and action packed.

Agreed. Michael Jordan had good hitting form. Ran the bases well. Fielded well too. About the only thing he couldnt do really well was hit a pitched baseball...which is actually difficult to do. Should we allow the use of a tee(you know, T-Ball) for those who lack hitting skill, so they can hit the ball? Less to think about, and would keep the game fast paced and action packed, right? Cuz hitting a pitched baseball shouldnt be a requisite skill in the sport of baseball.

Hopefully you see the analogy...lowering skill levels to accomodate the lowest common denominator is not good for a sport. Without shooting skill, ramping paintball is merely glorified dodgeball.

pumps are alike...except slower and not as action packed. still fast and lets you focus on moving...but less paint.

Pumps are alike...except that shooting a pump requires skill: shooting skill.

And the game is only slower for the spectator. Ask a pump player how fast and action packed it is. The only difference is the volume of paint in the air.

[Beemer]

Oh Boy

I just had a beer[one] and maybe I should wait to post in this thread.

Aww screw it.

Why does it seem that nearly everyone on AO(except a few) think that it takes no skill to shoot people with a ramping gun?

I dont think that. I use ALL my SKILL to shoot you. It dont matter to me if you ramp or not.
I have the skill to hit you or I dont. I know I turned that around. Depends on how you want to read it. It doesnt take no skill just less of it.

Ramping is for the girlie boys that cant pull fast. How fast did the SMG shoot? 10BPS?
It was outlawed know why? Can you say FullAuto. There was another reason too. Know what it was? That was before ASTM too. Whats the ASTM standard now? Not that it Matters or should it?

Know what USED to set the Pros apart from the average Joe Player back in the day. For me that was 86 to 99. 88 to 99 on the Tourny scene Pumps with and with out A.T., to SEMI ONLY. 12 grams to CA. It was how FAST they could pump or PULL 1s1p and still get on target. The tourny Boys now aint nothing special with Ramping. If they were they wouldnt need the ramp. The fast guys were always the first to get keyed on when we played.

You cry now when you take multi hits. Blame the gun, blame the player, blame the Rules. When it was still Semi we were taking 7 to 10 hits.

Anybody can run, move, slide, bla bla. It takes Skill and ability to shoot fast 1s1p and get on target. Trigger discipline. Oh ya squeeze it dont pull it.

Just for the record Im on the same page as Rogue. 1S1P. I shoot all Mags, X to Classic. They are all set up 1S1P. If I dont squeeze it, it aint shooting. I dont fear the ramping either. Bring it on. A GOOD fast Semi TEAM could beat a ramping team.

Paintball used to be Smart why did we let it get stupid.

Damn I need another Brew

Peace Out.

Sig it cause I can and so could you if you wanted.

____________

[Beemer]

they are capping e-guns at 15 because of the force of a string of paintballs consentrated in the head in the amont of 15 shots in 1 second would not cause a player to become unconcious but more than that would (they did studies on this based on mask/lens impact, force applied to induce head trama, etc)

You dont post to much but when you do its good.

This thread already took a left turn. Got any more info on these studies? One ball at 300fps at 20ft or less can cause serious head trauma. Also known as BFT[blunt force trauma]