Why?

[trevorjk]

You dont post to much but when you do its good.

they are fricken books to! but good books

[Lohman446]

Because everyone on AO(except a few) know the truth.

...It takes no skill to ramp. Its a triple tap. 3 pulls. The rest is all computer. Since when did 3 trigger pulls qualify as having skill?

...It takes little skill to point a ramping marker. So little skill, that everyone can point. I didnt know that pointing was a really hard skill to master?

I'm still going to note that getting how fast one can twitch there fingers out of the skill set was a good move. By what you have said there it would seem that I could take any players at the field and jump right into X-ball against Dynasty and do ok.

Everything else becomes emphasized when you even the finger twitching ability. Take it out and the other skills become more important. Is it a learned skill? Sure it is. The point is many of us would like to see it removed from the skill set tested in paintball because it has become over emphasized by the spray and pray tactics that were obvious well before ramping came out.

[p8ntbal4me]

You dont post to much but when you do its good.

This thread already took a left turn. Got any more info on these studies? One ball at 300fps at 20ft or less can cause serious head trauma. Also known as BFT[blunt force trauma]

It was taken from a few sources,.. teh one that sticks out is an article I say in APG.
Now,..BEFORE people start saying things about APG,.. let me cover myself.

I read an article in APG that talked about the new firing modes and such. In this article it tackled issues like, sportsmanship, ROF, gun technology, and safety. Mostly safety.

In the article they stressed how the modes of guns (cheater modes, ramping modes, drop shot modes for chrono cheating, etc) proove to be a huge safety concern.

I usually have dinner with my parents once every 2 weeks for family reasons,.. and my mother happens to be a nurse. She works in the ICU and sees alot of people filter in to the hospital with vehicle related incidents.

After explaining over dinner what the article was saying she explained it like this to make it simple: You take a bat and swing into someones head. Its knocks them out. Because of the force applied in such a massive area over the spread of the bat into an area prone to damage resulting in someone blacking out,.. possibly suffering more than that due to the blow. 1 paintballl going 200mph probley wont knock you out (we all know that but she doesnt), but if you were to multiply the contact over the same area like a bat does in a short amount of time, you most likely can knock someone out. The brain doesnt know the difference in a baseball bat to a paintball, or a baseball for that matter. It only knows that you are now in pain,... and that its registering to the rest of your body that it hurts and t needs to do something. Im not a doctor and I know almost nothing about the brain. but I know that if you screw up the signals it gets to function the rest of your body,.. it has to do SOMETHING to prevent you from dying because its loosing control,... so it shuts down.

I know thats kinda hard to swallow, but like I said. I know nothing about head trama,.... and my mother knows nothing about paintball. All I know is the reason for the 15BPS ROF cap on firing modes used in tourneys. Im looking for the rules now and the rule modifications to the reason why the cap is in place (Im sure its listed under the ammendments)

Im not disagreeing with you. I just want to make sure you know what I know. And all I know is the reasoning behind the rule thats in place. Other than that,... its all speculation to me.

[Lohman446]

Bat = constantly applied (or even increasing) force when it hits, heavy solid object

Paintball = decelerating 3 gram fragile object


Just not really good analogies

[REDRT]

I was once beat down by a few people with bats. They knocked me out after a few blows. Fractured my skull and I had a nasty headache for a couple weeks. First hand I can say a volley of paintballs isn't quite like a bat(s). Not that the idea doesn't have marit. A volley of balls to the head does smart. I always figured the reason was maybe the fear of goggle lence failing with sustained fire at a short range.

[p8ntbal4me]

I'm still going to note that getting how fast one can twitch there fingers out of the skill set was a good move. By what you have said there it would seem that I could take any players at the field and jump right into X-ball against Dynasty and do ok.

Everything else becomes emphasized when you even the finger twitching ability. Take it out and the other skills become more important. Is it a learned skill? Sure it is. The point is many of us would like to see it removed from the skill set tested in paintball because it has become over emphasized by the spray and pray tactics that were obvious well before ramping came out.

This is EXACLTY why I was sure CKY_Alliance didnt read my post because I agree with the RAMPING on this ideal. Take a piece of the game,... make a fast fingered trigger and a slow fingered trigger the same speed, and then you have to find another skill to make one player better than the other.

Like I stressed,.. I do agree with ramping in some ways, others I dont. If ramping does good to draw the media into our sport,.. then its good. Remember back in the 90s when ESPN aired the AAs still firing mags and the Patapalegic Turtles running cockers? Tourney style play (with the exception of the gun technology and the time span for games) was totally different. NPPL was running longer games, which ment harder to run commericals in. Sometimes the games would end quick due to a dead mans walk, etc. It was hard to keep the games on air because of the way the media runs its programming which has to do with timing.

Now comes todays style of tourney play. Games are much shorter, they dont ever last long because players want highers scores for shorter match times. Faster, easier firing modes to allow teams to work more in communication rather than the mechanics of the markers. It looks exciting to new players or people who know nothing about the sport. It appears to be not paintfull in some ways over the TV vice seeing it in person,... thats a good thing IMHO.

So with that said,... I agree with ramping. I dont agree with it in every aspect of the game,.... but for those reasons I adgree with CKY-Alliance on that it does do good some good for the sport.

I re-read some other posts,.. wanted to cover my bases. I noticed that CKY,.. your first post says that "and that snap shooting automatically happens magically because the gun is ramping". Ummm well I dont think you and the rest of the world agree on snap shooting and EXACTLY what that is. Snap shooting is the ability to take a SINGLE shot while moving the silouet of the front sight posts in reference to the rear sight post (in this case, the tip of the barrel to the rear of the marker) in a quick motion and scorng a hit. The term comes from military training. (The ability for a rifleman to spot a target, get into possision ((in a perfect example: Standing to prone,.. which hurts alot! and shoot in the shortest amount of time but score a hit) When I played in the CFOA,.. snap shooting was evolving the game so that players could shoot a high ROF and still keep the motion that makes snapp shooting so good of a concept in paintball in the game. So what we (the CFOA and now every other tourney series in the world that plays games at high ROF) found that you can get a better chance of hitting a player if you start shooting INSIDE your bunker (if you were behind a piece of hyper-ball tubing for example) and lean out to your markers side, you can keep your ROF up, the last ball to clear the bunker will not be seen or heard as far as a sound signature because shooting your bunker was louder and causes the player to have to re-adjust his thoughts where he thinks you might be, the string of shots and you comming around the side of the bunker will be seen at the very last minute. This gave players a HUGE advantage because it promoted their body and marker for a hit to the other team in the least amount of time possible, gave him some time to shoot a rope of paint, then tuck back in. Problem was,.. we were no longer snap shooting,.. we were playing peek-a-boo with machine guns!

If you dont believe that,.... go get your marker and put into "sniper mode, or snap shot mode" and fan the trigger. Whats your max ROF??? about 4BPS right???? Huh,.... why do you think that is? Why isnt snap shot mode just plain old ramping??? Its because the above statement is TRUE!!!! You are not snap shooting if your roping a target with paint and you come in and out of your bunker. I dont care what you say, its just not snap shooting.

I agree when you say that TIMING is a skill involved in snap shooting,.. TOTALLY AGREE! But high ROF takes that skill and dulls it because a player no longer shoots the target,.. they shoot the AREA OF THE TARGET multiple times over,... which happens to be called SUPRESSION FIRE and is COMPLETELY different!

[REDRT]

Here is a theory. Take NASCAR. I'm not fan, but it is big and lots of people watch it. To my understanding is that the cars are made to be the same, run the same. Now we all know there isn't nothing stock about a stock car, but one shouldn't be beat out by the next car in theory. It is more the driver than anything winning the race. My thoughts on ramping markers when they are in play is just like a stock car. Everybodys marker is close to equal like the a stock car is. So the markers don't win the game the players like the drivers do.
As I stated last night there is plenty of variety in paintball. People play with pumps, some like ramping and others like it somewhere in between. Play what you like to play and don't worry about the rest because you really don't have to. The arguement over skill and a direct correlation to a specific marker class to me is lame at best.

[p8ntbal4me]

Here is a theory. Take NASCAR. I'm not fan, but it is big and lots of people watch it. To my understanding is that the cars are made to be the same, run the same. Now we all know there isn't nothing stock about a stock car, but one shouldn't be beat out by the next car in theory. It is more the driver than anything winning the race. My thoughts on ramping markers when they are in play is just like a stock car. Everybodys marker is close to equal like the a stock car is. So the markers don't win the game the players like the drivers do.
As I stated last night there is plenty of variety in paintball. People play with pumps, some like ramping and others like it somewhere in between. Play what you like to play and don't worry about the rest because you really don't have to. The arguement over skill and a direct correlation to a specific marker class to me is lame at best.

This makes complete sense to me.

Im off for a while,.. gotta meet with the Clippard dude for my new parts!!!

[JOESPUD27]

Because everyone on AO(except a few) know the truth.

...It takes no skill to ramp. Its a triple tap. 3 pulls. The rest is all computer. Since when did 3 trigger pulls qualify as having skill?
In a shooting sport, the skill of shooting is a requisite skill. Having to pull the trigger, for every pull, requires more skill than not. Which is true whether its a bouncing mag or a ramping electro.

It takes less skill to:

1) Shoot a ramping electro than it does a semi-electro.
2) Shoot a semi-electro than it does a semi-mechanical.
3) Shoot a semi-mechanical than it does to shoot an Auto-Trigger pump.
4) Shoot an Auto-Trigger pump than a non-AT pump.

Yep, you've got it.

Jay

[RogueFactor]

I'm still going to note that getting how fast one can twitch there fingers out of the skill set was a good move.

We obviously disagree. I dont believe that firing any firearm, including a paintball marker, is done by twitching ones fingers. Firing a firearm or marker fast, with accuracy, is an acquired skill.

I also believe your premise is flawed. They didnt take "how fast one can twitch their fingers out of the skill set". They just made it about how fast you can "triple-twitch", rather than having to "twitch" for each shot.

By what you have said there it would seem that I could take any players at the field and jump right into X-ball against Dynasty and do ok.

When it comes to firing the marker, that would be accurate.

Everything else becomes emphasized when you even the finger twitching ability. Take it out and the other skills become more important.

I totally agree. This is a shooting sport though. The requisite of shooting skill shouldnt be removed from a shooting sport to emphasize other skills or allow everyones skill to be equal. The skill of shooting is the most basic and rudimentary skill that should be required to participate effectively in a game based on shooting.

The point is many of us would like to see it removed from the skill set tested in paintball because it has become over emphasized by the spray and pray tactics that were obvious well before ramping came out.

You should want the exact opposite for a true test of skill set, by your own statement.

Spray & Pray is largely an ineffective tactic because of its inherent innacuracy. The innacuracy of this method is implied by its very name. The only benefit of Spray & Pray is volume.

Ramping however allows a player to put down volumes of paint, same as Spray & Pray, but with accuracy because accuracy comes from the combination of all the subset skills of shooting.

If anything, ramping is over-emphasizing the spray & pray tactics. When in reality, shooting skill can only be measured and tested comparitively if the player is shooting every ball.

[Lohman446]

Shooting is far more than just pulling a trigger. My point about spray and pray - it existed before ramping...

[RogueFactor]

Shooting is far more than just pulling a trigger. My point about spray and pray - it existed before ramping...

Totally agree. Shooting skill requires that, and more(to be accurate anyway). I think I stated that though...

Trigger discipline is how the trigger is pulled. And includes all the subset skills required to hit a target accurately, including aiming. Trigger discipline is taught in firearms training and sports shooting, of all kinds.

[REDRT]

I dont believe that firing any firearm, including a paintball marker...

If anything, ramping is over-emphasizing the spray & pray tactics. When in reality, shooting skill can only be measured and tested comparitively if the player is shooting every ball.

My arse! I'd suppose a person shooting a shotgun has no skill since one trigger pull sends many tiny pellets down range? I figure I can use this as an example since you've already classified a marker as a firearm.

[RogueFactor]

My arse! I'd suppose a person shooting a shotgun has no skill since one trigger pull sends many tiny pellets down range? I figure I can use this as an example since you've already classified a marker as a firearm.

My arse!!!

Apples & Oranges, dude.

You are trying to compare the accuracy of the pellets of a shotgun shell(which cannot be controlled by the shooter) to the multiple individual shots of spray n pray tactic(which can be controlled by the shooter).

Non-Sequitir. Try again.

[REDRT]

My arse!!!

Apples & Oranges, dude.

You are trying to compare the accuracy of the pellets of a shotgun shell(which cannot be controlled by the shooter) to the multiple individual shots of spray n pray tactic(which can be controlled by the shooter).

But if you read into the arguement. There is to "some" no control and or skill in firing mutiple balls out of marker with enhancements like ramping. Make no mistake about it,"there is still control". Just like there is control firing of a shotgun. You have control of your swing and your choke to munipulated the spread of your shot pattern to hit your intended target at a given range.
There is always going to be positive and negative aspects to almost everything. One can argue the pros and cons about it all day long. I think Lohman brought it up, there was what is called, "spray and pray" long before ramping came into play. I really believe if one really thinks about it long enough. It isn't the techno stuff we have today making the game any less fun it is more the players we have today making things seem that way.
Ramping is an easy target to blame all the bad mojo on because it has made a huge impact on the game. In reality todays super markers are more like "stock cars" they all do the same basic thing and it is the person behind the trigger making the plays. I say there is less gap now than ever on the tourney field with them. Look at when the RTs made an appearance! Total domination. When everybody finaly caught up it was fine till the next day someone made something even better/faster. Today anyone can have a very capable marker and not go broke doing it. To be a well rounded player you have to learn many of the same skills as before and some new ones to be someone that really stands out of the crowd. The players I see blasting crap loads of paint and not hitting anything are now as they were then "turds". And thats the bottom line...