hAir trigger

[RRfireblade]

PTPs Patent was filed over 7 years ago. Things were alot different then. DW had intentions of a DW/AGD partnership on hAir , at the time ( a few years ago) that was a much different scenerio then it would be now , going alone.

Look , I promise you have no idea how much I pushed for a Pneumatic mag. The first prototypes I did , I did AGAINST direct instruction on my own just to get it going. I was all for a Mag version right from the get go , we're talking WAY back before all the legal stuff came up. If I had the resources , I would still consider doing it now even tho the profit potential is not great. I have the means to gain legal backing but there would be alot at stake regardless. I realise none of you have seen a production version of the frame but you'll have to take my word for it when I tell you that mass production of some of those parts are NOT going to be easy. That was the first part of the equasion that held PTP up. I could mass produce an entire mechanical mag for less than the Pneu frame alone. It's a big deal I promise you. Even Tom had stated of the hAir that he wasn't even sure if they could biuld it in it's current form , just way to complex and way to many adjustments. Just for example , when we went to Humphrey to biuld our switching , they wanted an order 100,000 units. That's quite a few. I'd realy have to figure out how to overcome that issue before anything else. Even a few hundred would take my months to turn out by hand.

You just have to trust me that it's not that easy to just start selling a frame that meets my standards for this product.

[RRfireblade]

And yes , PTP has probably $30K+ in that patent. That was why they set a deal with K2 at the time who claimed hudreds of thousends of units. That patent also covers other fields of invention where profit could be made outside of Paintball.

As a 'typical' patent process , a simple grant could be had for a few thousand.

[ScatterPlot]

I for one would like to machine my own- some specs would be kewl and then I wouldn't have to design my own

[Thordic]

As one of the few people who were lucky enough to use the hAir in a game (I was able to use it at IAO a few years ago for a few games), it is an amazing product.

It honestly beats almost all the electros I've shot. The trigger feels amazing. You've never seen a gun that much fun to shoot.

I think it could potentially take off if it ever made it past whatever hurdles are holding it back right now.

It really is a shame this invention can't make it to production. I've never shot PTP's version, but if its like Colin's, it'd be amazing as well.

[RRfireblade]

Right now , as I've said , the biggest issue I have is mass production of a couple of key components. The reason it works so well is the switching in them. It's difficult and costly. We've gone thru China and the quality was far less than ideal.

As for function , yeah . . . I gotten into near fist fights with kids at local fields who don't believe they are Mechs. It's almost funny.

The only other problem with Mass market today is not only overall cost but features IE firing modes. Most kids won't last 5 secs with a true Semi only gun. Most have never seen a 'True' indefiable true semi gun. Even the semis most think are are debatable. There's no debating the Pneumag , it's semi. :)

The younger crowd today just doesn't want to have to work that hard.

[Thordic]

I remember at IAO, myself and Nelson both used the hAir in games. It was so much fun we didn't stop shooting the entire game. Nelson was shooting bunkers with no one in them just because he didn't want to stop shooting the gun.

People have seen the videos but I think once a few of these actually got out to fields, and people got a chance to shoot them, demand would increase exponentially.

I can't even express how dissapointed I was that these never came out. I am more or less out of paintball at the moment, I havn't played in years, but I would still run out to buy one of these just to have it. They are that good.

[ProblemKinder]

Not derailing anything , he doesn't need a letter to sell anything. He needs a C&D to even have a concern or a Court finding to be forced to stop. DW has a PATENT in hand for his frame mechanism. There's nothing more to discuss there.

so are you suggesting he just ignore this letter of concern? if I was DW i wouldn't want to get into a legal battle with PTP.

what would be cool, is if DW updated their news page and told us exactly what is going on. almost 3 years ago they mention "legal hurdles" involving PTP and then nothing.

the problem is, 30-40 dollars for the parts to build a pneumag isnt expensive, it's the money i would be spending replacing my frame if I screw up. that's why we don't have thousands of pneumags floating around, people are afraid to build them. not to mention you need a drill press.

what would also be cool is if DW answered emails....just a side-rant i would like to know if they'll mill my slug. has anyone received an email from DW lately? am i just getting ignored or is something going on?

i don't think going into business making pneuframes would be all that risky. since alot of people would be willing to send their own frames in to have the work done on it's not like somebody has to stock pile a bunch of frames and worry about whether or not they'll sell. stock up on a bunch of the 30 dollar kits and wait for the frames to come in. heck, if i had a drill press and the skill i would offer the service. you won't make a grand living off of it but you could make some money, and help the industry grow just a little bit. who knows, pneumags, or atleast pneu-'enter gun here' might catch on in the industry. maybe not right away but who knows...people thought HPA tanks were stupid when they were first introduced.

EDIT: the thing is, fireblade, that you and a few others seem to just, come upon information that most of us don't. and when DW comes out with this insane video of this totally awesome mech gun and gets us all hyped up about it, then says "we're experiencing legal hurdles", then nothing for 3 years, the vast majority of us are stuck in the fog. confused and angry. you keep saying "you don't know what your talking about" of course we don't. how could we? all us paintball-peeons have to go by is one vague news post that was posted 3 years ago. try to be patient with us, the hAir trigger is pretty much AMAZING you have to understand how excited, confused and disappointed we all are.

[RRfireblade]

so are you suggesting he just ignore this letter of concern? if I was DW i wouldn't want to get into a legal battle with PTP.

what would be cool, is if DW updated their news page and told us exactly what is going on. almost 3 years ago they mention "legal hurdles" involving PTP and then nothing.

the problem is, 30-40 dollars for the parts to build a pneumag isnt expensive, it's the money i would be spending replacing my frame if I screw up. that's why we don't have thousands of pneumags floating around, people are afraid to build them. not to mention you need a drill press.

what would also be cool is if DW answered emails....just a side-rant i would like to know if they'll mill my slug. has anyone received an email from DW lately? am i just getting ignored or is something going on?

i don't think going into business making pneuframes would be all that risky. since alot of people would be willing to send their own frames in to have the work done on it's not like somebody has to stock pile a bunch of frames and worry about whether or not they'll sell. stock up on a bunch of the 30 dollar kits and wait for the frames to come in. heck, if i had a drill press and the skill i would offer the service. you won't make a grand living off of it but you could make some money, and help the industry grow just a little bit. who knows, pneumags, or atleast pneu-'enter gun here' might catch on in the industry. maybe not right away but who knows...people thought HPA tanks were stupid when they were first introduced.

EDIT: the thing is, fireblade, that you and a few others seem to just, come upon information that most of us don't. and when DW comes out with this insane video of this totally awesome mech gun and gets us all hyped up about it, then says "we're experiencing legal hurdles", then nothing for 3 years, the vast majority of us are stuck in the fog. confused and angry. you keep saying "you don't know what your talking about" of course we don't. how could we? all us paintball-peeons have to go by is one vague news post that was posted 3 years ago. try to be patient with us, the hAir trigger is pretty much AMAZING you have to understand how excited, confused and disappointed we all are.

I know , I know.

Let's see to clear this up then for you. "Some" of us are in the business and directly connected to the issue at hand. That's where some of the info comes from. In case your not aware , I was the one who developed the Patented version of the pneumag for PTP many years ago. I also did a Patented version of an Autococker and a Blowback version for WGP and BE respectfully. The legal issues you've quoted of DW are from was back before DW even had thier Patent granted . . . I'm not even sure if he had his application in yet although he very well might have. Alot has happend since then , and few 'new' statements made. Last I recall was DW hinting at producing the frame themselves with the new patent and without the help of AGD and another hint at retailing a full drop in kit of some sort. As you said , I haven't heard anything other from them on the subject so as of late , I have no idea why they haven't done anything or what they might do still.

As for PTP , the owner is still just getting over life threatening illness that had him in the hospital for a long time and more than once , we were close to losing him. That completely stopped all PTP development and forced them to conserve all finances to keep from losing everything they have. They are a small , few employee family business and I'm not even sure what it will take for them to get back on thier feet.

Basically that's where the issue stands right now. There are people full in thier rights to biuld frames or markers but are not going to for various reasons. Read my previous posts for info as to the costs and hurdles involved in the production of a 'Factory' Pneumag and then realize that a hundred or 2 units are not near enough to make it a viable product. AS for the rest of the 'market' , your talking about sub $200 ION shooters , Toury mode shooting wannabes making up the big majority and then the rest made up of scenerio'ers , old guys and super newb renters. There's not alot of room in there IMO , for a $5-$600 mechanical semi only marker. There just isn't or Mags and AGD would not be in the state they currently are in. Time and low costs have past them by not to mention Big business producers smothering the small guy when it comes to costs,distribution and marketing. It's an up hill battle if you have even an Amazing hot new product never the less and niche based underdog from the get go.

That's just the way it is right now and it's going to be tough to get some small company to tie up 10 or 20 grand minimum to take that kind of risk. If I ever did myself , I'd need to gaurantee probably 500 units being just a one man operation right now. I just don't see that many selling any time soon.

That's pretty much the dealio. :)

[Chronobreak]

so...we start a march to the pre order thread and get 500? then youll do it?


and from what you say it sounds like the production parts would be used in all versions, not just the mag? so how does all responsibility fall on us? i know of alot of people that would love an option like this for a tippy or spyder.
it seems other companies have shown interest, why arent they making one? i heard a worrgame product used this system...but have never seen one in person or for sale.

if people keep stalling saying, there is no market it may just be true after a while, and most of us have seen how fast the direction of the industry/players can change.

and to whoever asked, the last i hear from DW was the project was on the backburner for the long haul and was not a high priority

[Thordic]

Pre-order threads are worthless unless you had people who would pre-pay. Everyone says yes in pre-order threads, and then when it comes time to put their money down, they all dissapear.

If I had a dealer saying they could give me a pneumatic frame that can match Colin's performance, I'd send them the cash right now. Unfortunately, I'm in the vast minority.

[RRfireblade]

so...we start a march to the pre order thread and get 500? then youll do it?

You get prepaid preorders for 300 and I'll make it happen.


and from what you say it sounds like the production parts would be used in all versions, not just the mag? so how does all responsibility fall on us? i know of alot of people that would love an option like this for a tippy or spyder.

Cause I can only get legal backing to get a Mag version going. K2 still has license rights and plans for the WGP and the Blowback.

it seems other companies have shown interest, why arent they making one?

Cost vs Retail x Demand . . . as has been said.

i heard a worrgame product used this system...but have never seen one in person or for sale.

It's problematic since to overcome the "Cost vs Retail x Demand" equasion , they are trying to get parts made in China. In a nut shell , those parts suck. I've spent the last half a year (here and there) trying to get those parts to work. Just won't happen with that poor a quality.

if people keep stalling saying, there is no market it may just be true after a while, and most of us have seen how fast the direction of the industry/players can change.

It's been said cause it's true. To you , 2-300 units is demand. To everyone else in the business , it's not.

and to whoever asked, the last i hear from DW was the project was on the backburner for the long haul and was not a high priority

Yet another source who doesn't feel the endevour is worth it.

[ProblemKinder]

well, if the difference between a hAir trigger, and say, pneumagger's pneumag is just "better parts" I would settle for whatever parts pneumagger is using. i understand the hurdle you mentioned about having to order 100,000 units of some part, and obviously knowing you'll never sell 100,000 hAir triggers, but why does it HAVE to be that particular unit? I'd be happy if someone took my Y-frame, and one of those 30 dollar kits in the B/S/T forum and make me a nice pneumag. i would probably pay 100 bucks for someone to turn a frame I already own into a pneumag that worked like magic. maybe that's a bit pricey maybe not.

i'm sure colin's hAir trigger is the best out there, but under the circumstances i'd be willing to have a professional job done, with slightly less than professional parts.

[Chronobreak]

well looking at the 2008 automag thread it seems most of the people want some sort of pneumatic or e-pneumatic mag.

i guess that projects gonna be dead before it even started

:walk away from thread slowly:

[RRfireblade]

well, if the difference between a hAir trigger, and say, pneumagger's pneumag is just "better parts" I would settle for whatever parts pneumagger is using. i understand the hurdle you mentioned about having to order 100,000 units of some part, and obviously knowing you'll never sell 100,000 hAir triggers, but why does it HAVE to be that particular unit? I'd be happy if someone took my Y-frame, and one of those 30 dollar kits in the B/S/T forum and make me a nice pneumag. i would probably pay 100 bucks for someone to turn a frame I already own into a pneumag that worked like magic. maybe that's a bit pricey maybe not.

i'm sure colin's hAir trigger is the best out there, but under the circumstances i'd be willing to have a professional job done, with slightly less than professional parts.

Cause function between the two is really night and day. It's pretty much like an Electro versus a lighter ULT trigger setup. You still have chuff and shortstroke issues and still have to 'learn' the trigger for best performance.


If I did a small run of Pneus it would have to be the handmade units I ended up with in the prototypes. Man . . . a few hundred of those would be insane to build by hand tho.

[ProblemKinder]

Cause function between the two is really night and day. It's pretty much like an Electro versus a lighter ULT trigger setup. You still have chuff and shortstroke issues and still have to 'learn' the trigger for best performance.


If I did a small run of Pneus it would have to be the handmade units I ended up with in the prototypes. Man . . . a few hundred of those would be insane to build by hand tho.

true. how bout just one?