G-Force to release pneumatic frames for the Mags

[flyingpootang]

Look - we don't need you coming on here telling use R&D takes time (amazing insight), that your speculate the GForce LPR will be done (based on reading the same thread we all are), or that you would use a tickler on the GForce frame (which you don't have). The last point you are particularly unqualified to say - and we already heard from the manufacturer that this is not the case so I'm not sure why you would even post that. My estimation of the reason Garf said this is at the end...

As for specifics:


Because it is extremely well known that these have different internal piston sizes and volume.


Riiiiiight... so basically anything that makes the marker fire at any pressure at all means the LPR's have the same performance.


Where, specifically, did I say this? Though at this point I don't need too since others have posted good reasons.

Anyway - to get this back on point. If you take a GForce framed mag, due to the geometry of the design you can easily trip the sear with your finger at the end of the sear extension. I cannot do this higher up on the sear - especially where some home made ones trip it. So the sear extender requires/allows much less force on it (and is much softer than the actual hardened sear) to trip the sear.

If you use a tickler - which has to be run at a higher pressure because it has relatively low recharge rates (due to lack of volume) - you will likely be hitting the sear extender with much more force than is actually required to trip the sear, and much more force than it it designed to withstand over time. If you run it at the correct pressures required to simply trip the sear at the extender point, you will have issues at high rates of fire (including potential pressure spikes when it can't close fast enough that would again damage the extender).

Still having comprehension problems I see. I never stated I had a G-force frame. If your worried that the sear extender is made of a soft material than maybe it so superior then. I'm just tickled that you can trip the sear with your finger that's right up there with solving world peace. I know it's difficult for you, but think about it if the trigger pull is too light it will be very mushy, and would fire as you ran.

Since this site is owned by you I can post what is relevant. Are you so pretentious that you think everyone agrees with you, because you always post "we"instead of just yourself.

So what is the internal psiton size and volume differance. You keep posting it, but don't have any number. What are the pressure and volume requirements needed to run a G-Force? Do you know are you only regurgitating what Garf is saying.

For the 5th or 6th time since the amount of air needed to actuate a MPA-3 "not the G-Force frame just to be clear" is not that great and a tickler is more than efficient. Again if "and I don't know how to stress more" "IF I" had a G-Force I wouldn't hesitate using a tickler on it. Now if some reason the Tickler didn't work satisfactory or required an excessive amount of pressure that would damage the sear extender, then guess what "I wouldn't use it". If you can't figure out that what your using doesn't work for your application than "Stick with a manufactured product". Nothing wrong with that. With that said you can continue where Einstein left off or go around with a oil filled gauge and check what the pressure is of everyone's LPR piston.

[UThomas]

With a higher sear trip point your pnuemag is going to require much higher pressure out of the LPR to generate enough force from the clippard ram, obviously. To do high rates of fire you're going to have to crank the pressure even more on a small piston LPR so it doesn't starve. That is obviously not "efficient" - either to use a tickler or to use that high a sear point. Honestly - stop talking on it - you're embarrassing yourself.

rock

tickler

http://www.customcockers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9098&page=4

'Now if some reason the Tickler didn't work satisfactory or required an excessive amount of pressure that would damage the sear extender [...]'

I'm not sure why you continue revisiting this hypothetical; the designer already said not to.

[WickedKlown2]

So now that all of this has been discussed ad nauseum....
For the majority of G-Force frame owners who chose not to purchase the internal G-Force LPR, what is the recommended LPR for this frame?

TwilightG,,,

If I remember correctly it's between 15-25 PSI... I might be wrong but I will let Garf answer up when comes to do his weekly report...

I hope this helps

WK2

[flyingpootang]

I'm embarrassing my self by you not understanding what you read or write? Read, coprehend, think, and then post it works so much better.

1) I'm comparing a Micro Rock to a Tickler, but you have a standard size Rock pictured. Does that have a difference in volume? Ahh Yeah.

2) Is all that volume of a standard size Rock needed for my pneumatics? Ahhh No.

3) Will the standard size Rock fit inside of a G-Force frame? Ahhh No.

4) Where is the volume of air calculation for each reg and what is the required amount needed for the G-Force to operate properly, you better include the hose volume as well, and a + or minus for temperature veriances. I guess it time to whip out the "oil filled gauge again" to prove your point to me anyway since everyone else agrees with you.

[WickedKlown2]

How about you Two Please open up a new thread about all this Micro Rock - Rock - Tickler LPR debate and leave this one for those of us waiting to hear about our LPR's from G-Force (Garf)... It would be a lot less annoying than watching this "mine is bigger than yours peepee measuring contest" y'all have going on...

Thank You

WickedKlown2

[UThomas]

A standard rock and a micro rock are the same internally except the standard rock has an additional over pressure relief which accounts for the extra length. I already posted this.

WickedKlown2 - I hear you. There won't be any more posts from me on it - the "debate" doesn't really exist because Garf already told us not to use a tickler because it runs at too high a pressure and can spike at high ROF. This is based on the *fact* that it has smaller internal dimensions relative to regs such as the rock/microrock/dart/etc.

[warbeak2099]

How about you Two Please open up a new thread about all this Micro Rock - Rock - Tickler LPR debate and leave this one for those of us waiting to hear about our LPR's from G-Force (Garf)... It would be a lot less annoying than watching this "mine is bigger than yours peepee measuring contest" y'all have going on...

Thank You

WickedKlown2

I'm sorry. It's not our fault that flyingpootang has this idea in his head that the internal volume and piston size of different LPR's doesn't affect the performance of pneumag internals. Flying let me make it simple for you:

Ticklers have less internal volume and are not as well made as other LPR's. They are prone to inconsistency/pressure spikes. In order to prevent this inconsistency and allow for higher rof's, you need to turn up the Tickler considerably higher than other LPR's. You say you've compared a micro Rock and a Tickler. Surely you noticed the size difference?

We aren't talking in theoretical here, this is common knowledge. If you want to debate it, you're only making yourself look foolish. It's like debating gravity because it's "only a theory". Get real.

You're also being incredibly rude coming in here and announcing that the G-Force frame is no better than a home brew mod even though you've never shot or even held one. We've given you reasons why the G-Force frame does have some advantages over modded frames, but you choose to poo poo them all without any real counter argument. Just leave the thread if you don't have anything invested in this project. I'm sure Beemer doesn't appreciate you spewing crap all over a thread that has nothing to do with you.

[MANN]

I'm sorry. It's not our fault that flyingpootang has this idea in his head that the internal volume and piston size of different LPR's doesn't affect the performance of pneumag internals.

Let me give you an example. You grandmother owns 2 cars. A corvette, and a civic. Obviously the corvette is faster, but with your grandmother behind the wheel neither are going above 55.

Thus use either lpr.

We aren't talking in theoretical here, this is common knowledge. If you want to debate it, you're only making yourself look foolish. It's like debating gravity because it's "only a theory". Get real.

I have not seen proof of either from anyone "here" Garf nor anyone else has provided numbers. As far as I am concerned "garf saying so" doesnt hold much water. Didnt he say the frames would be ready when?

/carry on

[TwilightG]

guys.. while I managed to learn quite a bit through this bantering, it's really getting out of control.
I know I'm probably sticking my nose in something I shouldn't but seriously... someone is bound to get banned soon.



Now as far as which LPR is deemed acceptable by G-Force... Uthomas, you mentioned the rock/micro-rock. What about foregrip-style LPRs? They must surely be able to handle the volume and consistency required for the G-Force frame. Any particular regs? Do most have the ability to be finely tuned down to the suggested 25-50psi?

also, somewhat related.. if I were to use a foregrip-style LPR, does anyone know where I might be able to find a T-macroline connector? Do they even exist? I've seen RawButter's setup and it's nice, but I don't care for the chunky brass T-connector.

[MANN]

if I were to use a foregrip-style LPR, does anyone know where I might be able to find a T-macroline connector? Do they even exist?

rudz has one on his. IIRC I have seen them in various fitting catalogs (parker/swagelok,hylok, etc.)

[flyingpootang]

Riiiiight. Seems that a the biggest concern with a LPR that didn't have enough regulated pressure would be starving the pneumatic and shoot down before worrying about the velocity spikes of recharging.

Unfortunately this will not be my last post here, but I will no longer participate the LPR mine is better than yours debate.

With that said I think there should be a reward (such as a free or discounted frame ) if we can help Garf bring this to a close ASAP, keep dragging him through the mud, and repair his reputation so hopfully he will continue to sell his his products here that he has "in stock of course"

Let's look at the facts and possible solutions:

1) Since no one knows what the + - differances of the recharge rate/spike are with the exception of Garf the problem is creating or using a small enough LPR that will fit in the grip frame, have the lightest possible trigger and not ruin the sear extender.


What I would do if I where in Garf's shoes and bring this to a close:

A) Refund everyone's money that is waiting for a internal LPR, provide them with the necessary instructions and hardware to run an ROCK external regulator.

B) Install a Tickler (did I say that?) internally into the frame, machine a new sear extender out of a harder material such as 7075 to avoid damage or tap a set screw into the end of the sear extender where the ram makes contact, and remove the trigger return spring to get the lightest possible trigger.

[Dend78]

B) Install a Tickler (did I say that?) internally into the frame, machine a new sear extender out of a harder material such as 7075 to avoid damage or tap a set screw into the end of the sear extender where the ram makes contact, and remove the trigger return spring to get the lightest possible trigger.

if i was going to be milling something new why not mill a new extended sear

[flyingpootang]

if i was going to be milling something new why not mill a new extended sear

Mostly to keep the cost down, having to machine separate RT/am/mm sear and if the sear wears out there is an existing stock readily available.

[warbeak2099]

And increase the required LPR pressure, thus increasing the trigger pull? Why don't we just throw the frame out and put a ULT in our valves? You are hysterical.

I'd rather Garf just finish his LPR's. He took a long time but he delivered a fantastic product before and I'm sure he can do it again. I wouldn't want to settle for sub-par performance just so I can get the product faster.

[Dend78]

Mostly to keep the cost down, having to machine separate RT/am/mm sear and if the sear wears out there is an existing stock readily available.

but if you were to make AM/MM and RT sears and make serveral to keep in stock, i mean hell hes already doing this stuff at a loss, plus then you have a more reliable and longer lasting part correct? arent they basically the same part as well with or without a bushing? im not sure but i thought the only real difference was a bushing right?