Did I just create an MQ Mag Valve?

[warbeak2099]

Is that all it is? An electro mechanical solenoid that lets air down the powertube when it is closed? This seems like it should be pretty easy to manufacture. It would just be a tube with air passages and an EM noid slid in. Even simpler than the mag valve as it is.

[Nick E]

You'd have to have an extremely strong solenoid to hold back any significant amount of air pressure..
Saves gas, wastes batteries. Though, putting some type of mini pneumatic ram inside there might work(Like what's in pneumags).
It's an interesting idea though.

[Ruler_Mark]

thats not how a mq valve works.

[warbeak2099]

You'd have to have an extremely strong solenoid to hold back any significant amount of air pressure..
Saves gas, wastes batteries. Though, putting some type of mini pneumatic ram inside there might work(Like what's in pneumags).
It's an interesting idea though.

That's what the dark blue spring is for. It holds the noid open until you pull the trigger at which time the noid overcomes the spring and lets the air through.

I'm glad this is an original idea lol. It's simplicity is what excites me about it.

[Hilltop Customs]

Unless your going to use a noid that is strong enough to hold back the pressure of the spring....that design might end up acting more like a regulator.

Initially(your top pic) the gas pressure and spring pressure are conteracting each other....so the noid wont have to apply too much force to start to compress the spring. But as gas starts to escape....the balance is lost and the only thing holding back the spring is the noid. Unless the noid is powerful enough to hold back the spring it my close the dump chamber prematurely.

It may work, but it might end up having velocity changes based on the strenght of the noid(battery power) and ROF since slight pressure differences in the chamber my change the length of time the dump chamber is open(ie slightly underpressurized dump chamber=shorter dump......lower pressure+less volume=much lower velocity).

[p8ntbal4me]

If you email the guy that has the web page still up about the history and creation of the original MQ,... you will find that they did have a patent issued on the "pneumatic ram" idea for actuating the valve (as someone pointed out)


Sorry,.. its late and I need some sleep.

I'll find the information in the morning and link you guys with what I got.

Some of its emails,.. so take it for what I post.

~ P8nt

[warbeak2099]

Unless your going to use a noid that is strong enough to hold back the pressure of the spring....that design might end up acting more like a regulator.

Initially(your top pic) the gas pressure and spring pressure are conteracting each other....so the noid wont have to apply too much force to start to compress the spring. But as gas starts to escape....the balance is lost and the only thing holding back the spring is the noid. Unless the noid is powerful enough to hold back the spring it my close the dump chamber prematurely.

It may work, but it might end up having velocity changes based on the strenght of the noid(battery power) and ROF since slight pressure differences in the chamber my change the length of time the dump chamber is open(ie slightly underpressurized dump chamber=shorter dump......lower pressure+less volume=much lower velocity).

Yea that's the problem. The noid has to be able to overcome the spring pressure that is keeping it open against the air pressure. Let's say you lower the input pressure though. You'd have to figure out the minimum pressure needed to fire a ball at whatever velocity. If you could get the operating pressure down enough the noid wouldn't have to work as hard.

[DevilMan]

What about somethign like this... where the noid don't have to hold anything closed or open really... just the spring between the 2 sealing spots would control the size/pressure of the air pocket and would push the sealers apart when the pressure equalizes on one side of it...

Don't shoot me on this... just something I thought of and not sure if it's workable.. I'mthinking the input pressure would have to be controlled by an outside reg like an AC where the spring on the inside would be changed by disassembly and swap...

I think some of you will get it... and I don't know if it's already done... just something...

DM

[p8ntbal4me]

What about somethign like this... where the noid don't have to hold anything closed or open really... just the spring between the 2 sealing spots would control the size/pressure of the air pocket and would push the sealers apart when the pressure equalizes on one side of it...

Don't shoot me on this... just something I thought of and not sure if it's workable.. I'mthinking the input pressure would have to be controlled by an outside reg like an AC where the spring on the inside would be changed by disassembly and swap...

I think some of you will get it... and I don't know if it's already done... just something...

DM

I cant really follow the diagram too well. I can see the spring, and I assume th eblue lines are wiper seals, gaskets, or o-rings of some kind.

You should try using more colors and providing a key as well. Also, make SURE you add your name to the originals. If it hasnt been done, you would need to provide credit of your work.

On the note I left last night:
Here is a cut & paste from an email I got from Kerry Johnson.

"Do a search in the applications for inventor name johnson and city madison. The air hammer patent has been approved, but a number has not been issued yet. There never was a drop in kit for sale. We made a prototype and that was it. Once the MQ came along, we dropped it entirely."

If anyone was interested in the "air hammer" idea,.. there is some information on how to do it.

~ P8nt

[y0da900]

The number for the air hammer patent is 7,159,585. Enter it at http://www.pat2pdf.org or use this link:
air hammer

Essentially an inside out FASOR like piston. Looks like it could be made into a much shorter overall valve system than most "traditional" FASOR layouts on the market (odyssey guns, legend, fusion).

[Hilltop Customs]

is it me or wasnt there another post in here last night???

either way, P8nt Im not getting your drawing. Is there any way you could show it initally, be4 air is dumped. I'm guessing that the blue o-ring that is closer to the noid seals the powertube from the dump chamber. If thats the case the only thing I see to hold it in place is the noid? Maybe I'm just missing what you were setting up there.


Heres my idea..... Flip the noid around in the original picture. Replace the noid with a pneumatic ram. Move the dump chamber between the ram and the powertube. Have the ram seal at the base of the power tube. Use a 4 way to push and pull the ram so no spring is needed. Reduce the idiameter of the sealing area of ram to power tube to the minimum(required for needed velocity) to reduce the opperating pressure of the ram. The ram size can be up to the diameter of the valve if needed for added force.

Adjusting the output of the reg and the dwell of the ram adjusts velocity. If the reg is remote mounted this design is extermely simple and can be used as either mechanical or electronic, or quickly converted between both.

Might play around and make a model of it, but dont have time right now.





any way the valve redesigned will effect the the Lvl X opperation....so the bolt and spring will have to be redesigned also. Might be better off starting from square 1.

What I mean is if you reduce the opperating pressure of the valve, the force the bolt is being pushed forward with is reduced. Which would require a smaller spring.....but smaller spring = slower return. Effectively limiting the ROF.

Increasing the bore of the power tube would allow for a stonger spring, but my cause other problems.

[p8ntbal4me]

either way, P8nt Im not getting your drawing.

Its not my drawing,.. it was a re-quote from above

~ P8nt

[thejere]

More explaination with those drawings, please.
This a "new" design or a modification of the current AGD valve?
If it is the AGD mod, your missing an on/off system for your dump camber. One of the reasons the mag is so consistent is because the valve controls both the volume a pressure of air for each shot.

Fun fact for solenoids,
they are 'stronger' when used in short bursts with rest rather than continuous duty(being held on) The recover time of your solenoid could result unfavorable performance at high rates of because of electrico magnetic forces.

If you design this further, remember you have to conflicting goals:
1) a smaller air passage means less area for the gas to act against your seal, letting you use a smaller solenoid
2) a larger air passage gives you a faster release of gas, improving you consistency and efficiency.
hmm...take a look at the ULE trigger specs to solve that one

[Hilltop Customs]

P8nt.....DOH lol missed that, sorry

More explaination with those drawings, please.
This a "new" design or a modification of the current AGD valve?
If it is the AGD mod, your missing an on/off system for your dump camber. One of the reasons the mag is so consistent is because the valve controls both the volume a pressure of air for each shot.

Fun fact for solenoids,
they are 'stronger' when used in short bursts with rest rather than continuous duty(being held on) The recover time of your solenoid could result unfavorable performance at high rates of because of electrico magnetic forces.

If you design this further, remember you have to conflicting goals:
1) a smaller air passage means less area for the gas to act against your seal, letting you use a smaller solenoid
2) a larger air passage gives you a faster release of gas, improving you consistency and efficiency.
hmm...take a look at the ULE trigger specs to solve that one

I believe warbreak was working on a "new" design, at least thats what I was doing. My idea in my previous post would remove the on/off and also the sear, since no pressure would be applied to the bolt until the firing sequence is started. It would rely on flow restrictions from the reg to the dump chamber along with precise dwell to control the velocity. But if you believe an on/off would help in consistancy, it could easliy be implemented in my idea also......I guess I would really need to draw it up for anyone to really know what im talking about though.

[Nick E]

P8nt.....DOH lol missed that, sorry



I believe warbreak was working on a "new" design, at least thats what I was doing. My idea in my previous post would remove the on/off and also the sear, since no pressure would be applied to the bolt until the firing sequence is started. It would rely on flow restrictions from the reg to the dump chamber along with precise dwell to control the velocity. But if you believe an on/off would help in consistancy, it could easliy be implemented in my idea also......I guess I would really need to draw it up for anyone to really know what im talking about though.

I'm liking your original idea, at least that's what my idea was. I don't think you'd need an on/off, the ram controls air flow through the valve, kinda like a reversed ram/poppit type valve. I think that relying on "airflow restrictions" to control the velocity would get aggravating and be a PITA to design, mainly because it could be changed by things like temperature, pressure, and the like.