Proposal for instant transmission of information, violating the speed of light.

[athomas]

That shadow idea is blowing my mind currently. It exploits the upscale in the size of the shadow no? So that once the shadow is more than twice its real size, it should be moving faster than the speed of light? I'm trying to see if I understand this.

The perception of shadow movement perpendicular to the direction that the light is traveling would possibly indicate movement faster than the speed of light. However, the actual information is still being transmitted from the source of the light. The shadow, or lack of light, or any transition from dark to light or light to dark at any given point will still occur at the speed of light. Interesting concept though.

As for electrical flow, electrons flow into the hole created by a vacated electron. So, it becomes a chicken or egg scenario. Which came first, the electron moving to create the hole or the electron moving to fill a vacated hole. There is no transference into light in our ideal world, only the movement of a single electron at the switch closure which would indicate transfer of information. I know it is not possible due to physical limitations and non-perfect conductors, but ignoring the physical side it is an interesting thought.

[halB]

Thats the idea, but unfortunately this cannot be used to transfer information because the shadow only appears to be moving faster than light to the observer. Here is a cut from the wikipedia page about shadows:

"The projected shadow may appear to have moved faster than the speed of light, but there is no actual physical manifestation moving upon the surface. The misconception is that the edge of a shadow "moves" along a wall, when in actuality the increase of a shadow's length is part of a new projection, which will propagate at the speed of light from the object of interference."

Its kinda tough to grasp how this apparent FTL travel cannot convey information, but if you think about it for a while you can get your head around it.

Because even if the shadow appears to move faster than the speed of light, the information "move shadow" still travels along the lightwave at the speed of light. So no information could be transfered between the parties faster than the speed of light.

Tosburn, there's a question that's been rattling in my head. Has there ever been a proof that the speed of sound is always less than the speed of light?

[Dark Side]

Because even if the shadow appears to move faster than the speed of light, the information "move shadow" still travels along the lightwave at the speed of light. So no information could be transfered between the parties faster than the speed of light.

Tosburn, there's a question that's been rattling in my head. Has there ever been a proof that the speed of sound is always less than the speed of light?

Yes, 700 MPH is less than 186,000 MPS. Always.


Based upon the principle that sound requires a media to travel through to exist and light does not; sound will always be slower than light. It is simple physics.

Electricity travels at the speed of light with no resistance, which makes complete sense because light is pure energy transfer. Only until light hits other atoms is the energy transferred into another form which slows it down. Same thing with the Cat5 cable. You lose "speed" over distance.

Mass is the only way to warp space time and hence the only way to travel faster than light. But I will not even begin to go into that idea until you grasp common physics.

Edit: Drunk and realized I fubared a speed.

[tosburn3]

Yes, 700 MPH is less than 186,000 MPH. Always.


Based upon the principle that sound requires a media to travel through to exist and light does not; sound will always be slower than light. It is simple physics.

Electricity travels at the speed of light with no resistance, which makes complete sense because light is pure energy transfer. Only until light hits other atoms is the energy transferred into another form which slows it down. Same thing with the Cat5 cable. You lose "speed" over distance.

Mass is the only way to warp space time and hence the only way to travel faster than light. But I will not even begin to go into that idea until you grasp common physics.

I would hardly call it simple physics (I did not encounter relativistic Debye/Einstein models for solids even in graduate level statistical mechanics) but thats the idea. If you incorporate special relativity into the problem then the limit for the speed of sound in a solid as the spring tension approaches infinity is the speed of light.

[Dark Side]

I would hardly call it simple physics (I did not encounter relativistic Debye/Einstein models for solids even in graduate level statistical mechanics) but thats the idea. If you incorporate special relativity into the problem then the limit for the speed of sound in a solid as the spring tension approaches infinity is the speed of light.

We could throw as many "what ifs" into it as possible but taking your quote there I'm sure we all can agree on a few things....

1. Sound HAS to travel through another object to exist (hence no sound in a vacuum).
2. The density of said object completely dictates how fast sound travels through it (check out Sonar).
3. Light exists in complete vacuum (hence no energy transfer hence no loss of speed).
4. Sound will always be slower than light because sound itself is a byproduct of an energy transfer and not a form of energy itself (think of it as you would electricity with electrons jumping from atom to atom) and to be heard must continually give off more energy to progress further away from it's source. No continual energy output and the vibrations stop.

Information in any digital form is merely an electrical transfer. Whether it is binary, c++, or complete speculation; digital info is electricity.We know that energy travels at 186,000 Miles per Second (which makes me think I may have put MPH in my above post) with no resistance (through a vacuum). Which means that for info to travel a light year away it will take (amazingly) a year at best to get to the source. If you try and perceive the whole hand of god hitting a switch thing; that info will still take a year, it is not an instant "i hit this switch here and ALL electrons start jumping". It takes a push which can only be brought on by another electron up stream to get it moving(think potentials). The only way to bend Space Time is with Mass, hence the only way to go faster than the speed of light is to take the proverbial detour at the bend in space.


The ONLY time light and sound can exist at the same speed would be at a black hole far inside the event horizon.Which would pretty much put every need of establishing comm above surviving at zero. Hey look a massive object, let's go look inside it......

Take this the wrong way if you will, but since I'm drunk it really won't matter. This is simple physics.

[halB]

Ok... in physics, the speed of sound is not sound. It is the speed at which a disturbance of energy propogates through a medium.

But seriously, is there a proof? As in, what is the name of the proof?

[Dark Side]

Ok... in physics, the speed of sound is not sound. It is the speed at which a disturbance of energy propogates through a medium.

That was in it's entirety stupid and has no bearing at all. Of course speed is not sound. Is it a measurement of an object's velocity.

But seriously, is there a proof? As in, what is the name of the proof?

It is a math equation, much like a math equation that was devised to solve the speed of light.

Yes, I linked a Wiki page because maybe, just maybe you might research something to possibly gain half an ounce of sense about it before posting a stupid question on the internet and I have no want of trying to get you to understand this "crazy" idea. Continue with law school, hopefully you make a better lawyer than physicist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound

Don't worry, Quantum entanglement won't be achieved during your lifetime.

[Dark Side]

After a bit of thought, here is a better response. Figure out how to travel a few light years away so we actually have a need for instant information transfer.

[nerobro]

Mars can be as much as 40 minutes. the sun is seven... The moon has seconds of lag. None of that is ok for many kinds of communication, and almost all forms of control.

[halB]

Dark Side, start saying useful things or I will be forced to ignore you. Proofs have NAMES. Linking to an article on wikipedia about the general topic is about as useful as reading an encyclopedia to learn something in depth. Give me the name of the proof. Oh wait, you can't.

Question: What is the speed of sound inside a blackhole?

People have already been asking what the speed of sound is inside a neutron star - with no good answer. But what is it inside a blackhole?

[Dark Side]

Read all before you reply or you will have proven that you can not be taught.

Dark Side, start saying useful things or I will be forced to ignore you. Proofs have NAMES.

Yes they do; and most of the time, they are called math equations and then are derived from scientific testing. But instead I'll go this way. How do you know a particular crayon is red? Maybe you are color blind and have no "idea" how to describe what you think you see. Give me proof that the crayon is in fact red when you can't "see" it. Low and behold there happens to be an equation that shows us how light defuses and reflects off of certain particles to give us a specific wavelength of visible light hence in this case red.

Linking to an article on wikipedia about the general topic is about as useful as reading an encyclopedia to learn something in depth. Give me the name of the proof. Oh wait, you can't.

First off, way to go all 3rd grade on me right there. I did not want to take the time to try to explain it to you in a back and forth posting, so I instead linked a page with the Scientific/Mathematic equations to back up what I had said earlier. Plus I was hoping that if you read about how sound works then you might be inclined to think on a cognitive level without further embarrassing yourself.

Question: What is the speed of sound inside a blackhole?

The same as all other energy/matter streaming towards it's core which is completely dependent on the mass of said blackhole. The more massive an object is = the stronger it's gravity output. Since sound is a byproduct and not true energy itself it must run the course of this stream as it will not outrun energy.

Here is the equation for gravity
Fg = Gm1m2/r^2

G is universal gravitational constant: 6.67 x 10^-11 or 0.00000000006673 if you prefer
m1, m2 are the two masses that attract each other
r is the distance between the two masses
and you can find Fg which is the attractive force between the two masses

People have already been asking what the speed of sound is inside a neutron star - with no good answer.

Then these people do not know how to read or even begin to think for themselves. But, I'd have to say it depends on where you are inside the Neutron star trying to take these measurements. But it this situation, lets look at the components of a neutron star which happens to be the same stuff as most other stars. You have to use the equation( that was found on the Wiki page) to find out the speed of sound through different objects whether it be iron, stone, oxygen, whatever. The amount of gravity present dictates how close the atoms will be to each other which will dictate how fast sound can travel between these atoms. But since vibrations moving from atom to atom cause "sound" and the entire star is vibrating due to it's spinning and atoms crashing into other atoms and the star is in a constant state of flux, I again say that it really doesn't matter. and what do you possibly hope to obtain from this information as it will be different in about .00000000000032 seconds ago. There is no solid answer other than it doesn't matter.


If you are not willing to listen to someone with more knowledge on a subject than you, do not ask a question. Remember if you are not willing to listen the people of whom you continue to ask these questions we will no longer try to help you. Yes, I am a dick but would you like to know anything else of value?

[CatoRockwell]

Im no scientist but the shadow concept is seriously flawed. A shadow is defined by the absense of light thus its shape is still limited by it. Despite how fast it may seem if i stand in front of a projector and make a hand puppet it still takes time for the change in where the light is flowing to reach the wall. Limited by the speed of light.

Im not saying instant communication is impossible but you would essentially have to eliminate distance altogether, through one method or another to succeed.

[LK-13]

in your wired circuit hypothesis, you are not taking into account the resistance to the flow of electricity with in the wire itself.
the longer the wire the greater the resistance.

now the only way that faster than light communication could take place would be to manipulate the quantum level entanglement of 2 matching electrons at distance.
if you could observe 2 matching electrons, if one is spinning clock wise the other will be spinning counter clockwise,
therefore knowing the spin of one tells you the spin of the other, because matching electrons are entangled at the quantum level if you change the direction of spin of electron #1 the matching electron will instantly change direction of spin no matter the distance they are separated. a foot, a yard, a light year, far side of the major galactic cluster makes no difference.

therefore one could communicate by manipulating matching electrons at their quantum entanglement level.

how do we do this?

this is one of the many questions that are hopefully going to be answered some day using the Large Hadron Collider.

for a better explanation please refer to:
SamplePhysics of the Impossible: A Scientific Exploration
By
Michio Kaku

[halB]

OK Darkside, here's your one chance: What is the name of the proof?

[Cyberious]

Light, whether in a vacuum or through an atmosphere is limited to a constant "the speed of light". The only theoretical way this speed could be broken is via "warping" (as theorized in Star Trek). This involves enveloping a ship within a bubble that would cause a ship to exist out of a normal space/time continuum. Even on Star Trek though signals can only be transmitted in sub-space which refers to normal space as we know it.

I did a science project in high school looking at the difference (if any) between light as a particle in a normal atmosphere through a medium (water) and light as a wave in a vacuum. And guess what? In both cases the speed of light was constant.

Now is it possible for something to be created instantly? Well this is a little more theoretical. If you have a particle of matter enter the event horizon of a black hole at that same instant it is theorized that a piece of anti-matter is created and moves away from the black hole. There are bits of concepts of anti-time I could get into but it is late and i am too tired to break it down.

Now if we knew more about anti-matter and its characteristics like that it is the exact inverse of matter then perhaps a piece of data sent as it's inverse could be transmitted instantly.

Hawking's Black holes, Baby universes is a good place to start.

Wow where did that rant come from.