Proposal for instant transmission of information, violating the speed of light.

[halB]

Yes, but it appears that there is no proof showing that the speed of sound must always be less than the speed of light. If we just discard the "c is the maximum speed in the universe" thing, then we see that perhaps sound could move faster than c, and by sound I mean a disturbance propogating through a material. Just as in my completely inflexible rod, or that other guy's uncompressible atom.

In fact, I would wager that the speed of sound would be faster than c inside a black hole. Of course, that is depending on how time behaves inside.

[Cyberious]

In fact, I would wager that the speed of sound would be faster than c inside a black hole. Of course, that is depending on how time behaves inside.

I would suspect that the rate that both are drawn in would be equal. Similar to the effect of gravity on a feather or a hammer in a vacuum. Both fall at an equal rate.

[halB]

I would suspect that the rate that both are drawn in would be equal. Similar to the effect of gravity on a feather or a hammer in a vacuum. Both fall at an equal rate.

Ahhhh, but the feather and hammer only fall at the same rate of speed because there is little-to-nothing impeding either's flow, so forces are free to work on them equally.

In a black hole, who knows what objects or matter would get in the way.

[Cyberious]

Ahhhh, but the feather and hammer only fall at the same rate of speed because there is little-to-nothing impeding either's flow, so forces are free to work on them equally.

In a black hole, who knows what objects or matter would get in the way.

Also depends if we are talking about light as a wave or a particle.

[halB]

Also depends if we are talking about light as a wave or a particle.

Neither. I have a thread in the works detailing my hypothesis on that. I think I satisfactorily explained the two-slit experiment, as well as showing where those extra dimensions from string-theory are. To tell the truth, I am quite excited about it.

[factoid]

Yes, but it appears that there is no proof showing that the speed of sound must always be less than the speed of light. If we just discard the "c is the maximum speed in the universe" thing, then we see that perhaps sound could move faster than c, and by sound I mean a disturbance propogating through a material. Just as in my completely inflexible rod, or that other guy's uncompressible atom.

In fact, I would wager that the speed of sound would be faster than c inside a black hole. Of course, that is depending on how time behaves inside.

There isn't actually any reason for there to be a "proof" for something so specific as that.

Sound is the propagation of a wave through a medium. Atoms smashing into other atoms, which smash into others, etc... Sound cannot transmit through a vacuum because of this as we all know.

The maximum speed at which any molecule can move is the speed of light. The proof for that is the theory of special relativity. As mass approaches the speed of light it requires infinite energy to accelerate, which is not possible.

As for your black hole theory...you can say pretty much anything might be possible at the center of a black hole, considering the laws of physics break down completely in those conditions.

[factoid]

I also wanted to make a quick comment about the basic premise of this thread: That you can connect a lightyears-long wire to a battery at one end and a switch at the other and read battery drain as information.


Sorry, it just doesn't work like you think it does.


Electrons move across wire like pegs in a board. Say your wire is a board with 100 holes in it. You connect a switch and a light bulb at one end, and a battery at the other. Before your switch can do anything, you have to energize the entire circuit. So you need a battery with a bare minimum of 100 pegs inside of it or else there won't be enough juice to even reach the switch.

Considering this is a thought experiment I'll assume we have an infinitely powerful battery that can both overcome the resistance of the wire and actually CREATE a circuit in the first place.

Electricity moves pretty slowly compared to light. We'll have to wait thousands of years for electrons from the source to reach all the way to the source.

But once that line is energized we have our communication system, right? I turn the switch on and I'll immediately see the decrease in energy across the line. Wrong.

Remember our peg analogy from earlier. We turn the switch on and Peg 1 moves into the light bulb, lighting it up. Peg 2 moves into slot one, peg 3 moves into slot 2, and so on and so forth. The electrons will move like dominos. So it will again take thousands of years before the signal is readable on the battery.

[halB]

I also wanted to make a quick comment about the basic premise of this thread: That you can connect a lightyears-long wire to a battery at one end and a switch at the other and read battery drain as information.


Sorry, it just doesn't work like you think it does.


Electrons move across wire like pegs in a board. Say your wire is a board with 100 holes in it. You connect a switch and a light bulb at one end, and a battery at the other. Before your switch can do anything, you have to energize the entire circuit. So you need a battery with a bare minimum of 100 pegs inside of it or else there won't be enough juice to even reach the switch.

Considering this is a thought experiment I'll assume we have an infinitely powerful battery that can both overcome the resistance of the wire and actually CREATE a circuit in the first place.

Electricity moves pretty slowly compared to light. We'll have to wait thousands of years for electrons from the source to reach all the way to the source.

But once that line is energized we have our communication system, right? I turn the switch on and I'll immediately see the decrease in energy across the line. Wrong.

Remember our peg analogy from earlier. We turn the switch on and Peg 1 moves into the light bulb, lighting it up. Peg 2 moves into slot one, peg 3 moves into slot 2, and so on and so forth. The electrons will move like dominos. So it will again take thousands of years before the signal is readable on the battery.

I tip my hat to you. Thank you for the clear example.

[factoid]

I tip my hat to you. Thank you for the clear example.

No problem. It's a confusing topic. Based on how we experience the physics over short distances it seems like the electricity actually would all move as one consistent line.

As soon as you move Peg 1, pegs 2, 3, 4 and 5 would all pick up and move over one spot simultaneously, but it's more like dominos than musical chairs.

[Frizzle Fry]

Light, whether in a vacuum or through an atmosphere is limited to a constant "the speed of light".

It's limited, but not to a constant. By defining the "speed of light" as just that, you're using a term that intentionally allows for redefinition. We "know" the speed of light as 299,792,458mps but there are plenty legitimate theories outside of your "Star Trek" example of "warping" that suggest a greater speed of light than what we currently believe to be the capped standard.

I can't help by go back to the Scharnhorst effect, which I brought up a year or so ago in this thread. Quantum tunneling and wavelength cuts can increase (and arguably have increased) the speed of photons traveling between Casimir plates, if only by tiny amounts. Even a minuscule increase in speed is astounding; we just need the means to measure and prove it.

[cockerpunk]

the speed of light most certainly changes. it depends on the medium the light is propogating through. air has a very high index, while clear plastics have a very low index. becuase of the way the speed of light changes, lenses and mirrors work.

the "constant" known as the speed of light isn't that the speed of light doesn't change, its that regardless of your location, velocity, or persepective, the speed of light ina vacuum is exactly the same. a key idea that lead to the theroy of relativity. if no matter how fast and which direction you go, the speed of light is always the same.

also, electricy does move at the speed of light. electrons in the wire only move at something like 10^3 m/s in the wire, but charge propogates at the speed of light. electric current is defined as flow of charge, so it moves at the speed of light. this is one of those interesting and kida scary ones: no one has ever seen electricity. because one cannot see charge, or the change in charge.

[hill160881]

humm

[QUOTE=halB]
Information is not matter, nor energy. Therefore, it should be allowed to be transmitted instantly. First we must find a process that does not use the speed of light - in order to phrase that horribly.

Electrical energy speed is not faster than light through any media, under any condition. i know that is not what is being said but the experiment will only yield these results.

This is where it all starts, with this theory. Information is not matter, nor energy. Without energy intelligent or organized mathematical information would not exist. Everything we store in our heads is kept there using energy. it takes energy to read it. So information is in its very nature energy. and if u want an answer to the riddle here, then the laws of thermodynamics solves this. We are talking about a battery and a wire in a circuit. i believe the 2nd law of thermodynamics partially explains why. high energy moves to low energy. then we have the whole resistance thing. For the older people. Have u ever used a phone to talk to someone in another country, back before satellite communication. Well then u know that a copper line has a noticeable delay, when speaking you have to wait a second before a response comes. This is because of the time it takes for the information to travel that distance, and there response to return, and don't say that it takes time to translate into audio and back into whatever electrical media they use to transmit back then, cause there was no delay when making calls next door. it comes down to this until we find another way to transmit information that does not use physical means(electricity or light) then the transmission will always be limited by the terrestrial laws of physics. So there is no way to test this theory in the garage. now if one could use neutrinos(did i spell that right), which is a faster than light particle, to transmit info then we could transmit faster than light. And just detecting these particles has taken millions and decades and we don't even know how fast they travel nor can we even explain what they are mathematically.

The only way to transmit information instantly is to make that info occupy both places at the exact same space time. We have done this with electrons, you can read about this in a collage chemistry or physics book. This is the only workable answer but if u know where i am going with this then we need another thread.

[factoid]

[QUOTE=hill160881]

Information is not matter, nor energy. Therefore, it should be allowed to be transmitted instantly. First we must find a process that does not use the speed of light - in order to phrase that horribly.

Electrical energy speed is not faster than light through any media, under any condition. i know that is not what is being said but the experiment will only yield these results.

This is where it all starts, with this theory. Information is not matter, nor energy. Without energy intelligent or organized mathematical information would not exist. Everything we store in our heads is kept there using energy. it takes energy to read it. So information is in its very nature energy. and if u want an answer to the riddle here, then the laws of thermodynamics solves this. We are talking about a battery and a wire in a circuit. i believe the 2nd law of thermodynamics partially explains why. high energy moves to low energy. then we have the whole resistance thing. For the older people. Have u ever used a phone to talk to someone in another country, back before satellite communication. Well then u know that a copper line has a noticeable delay, when speaking you have to wait a second before a response comes. This is because of the time it takes for the information to travel that distance, and there response to return, and don't say that it takes time to translate into audio and back into whatever electrical media they use to transmit back then, cause there was no delay when making calls next door. it comes down to this until we find another way to transmit information that does not use physical means(electricity or light) then the transmission will always be limited by the terrestrial laws of physics. So there is no way to test this theory in the garage. now if one could use neutrinos(did i spell that right), which is a faster than light particle, to transmit info then we could transmit faster than light. And just detecting these particles has taken millions and decades and we don't even know how fast they travel nor can we even explain what they are mathematically.

The only way to transmit information instantly is to make that info occupy both places at the exact same space time. We have done this with electrons, you can read about this in a collage chemistry or physics book. This is the only workable answer but if u know where i am going with this then we need another thread.

The problem with using quantum physics to instantaneously transfer information is that like all things quantum mechanical it breaks down as soon as you start observing it.

If I isolate two entangled particles and put them in separate locations, no matter how far away they are, I can theoretically fire a photon at one of them and the state change will be instantly transmitted to the other particle.

But in order to actually observe that state change I have to interact with the second particle which destroys its isolation which in turn destroys its quantum entanglement.


So in other words we can use quantum mechanics to transfer information instantaneously as long as we never try to collect any of it.

[hill160881]

[QUOTE=factoid]

So in other words we can use quantum mechanics to transfer information instantaneously as long as we never try to collect any of it.

Back to observation changing the results. That seems to happen allot in this kind of science. Maybe some day though. Still a fun topic though. Really gets the brain going. Then we get back to shooting at people for fun.

[rsterne]

Voltage Potential Across the Switch

I've read most of the replies.... and think I have a slightly different way of thinking about the problem.... At some point after constructing the light-year long circuit with a switch at one end and a battery and current sensing device at the other end.... you must connect up the battery to the wires.... At that point, the battery begins to "steal" electrons from one wire and "push" them into the other wire.... This will continue until the battery voltage shows up across the switch a light-year away.... This movement of electrons will be somewhat slower than the speed of light because of the resistance of the wire.... even at a temperature near absolute zero.... Therefore, it will take over a year before the full battery voltage shows up across the open switch.... Eventually, the flow of electrons through the battery ceases....

Now you close the switch.... The reverse situation occurs.... The voltage difference across the switch goes to zero.... and electrons begin to flow from the wire with excess electrons into the wire with a deficit of electrons.... Over a year later, this movement of electrons gets to the battery and the battery begins to "pump" electrons through the circuit once more....

If this is indeed the situation.... the current sensing device near the battery (assuming it was sensitive enough) would actually indicate that the switch was closed for the first year while the battery was busy "pumping" electrons to create the voltage potential across the switch.... For over a year after the switch was closed, it would indicate the switch was still open until the electrons nearest the battery began to move.... This seems counter-intuitive.... but I propose it to be the case....

Bob