Body Mechanics and Accuracy

[borph]

I have always been a rec'baller and scenario player, and have never had much interest in speedball.

After becoming fed up with the heavy and cumbersome tank-under-gun setup everyone else seems capable of tolerating, I opted for a remote setup with a gas-thru-stock. Being able to shoulder the marker like a rifle (or shotgun) has greatly improved my kill ratio, but now I've grown tired of being constantly hindered by the coiled hose.

For those of us who own a Flatline, I have modified the design of the stock drop forward by adding 2 inches to the portion that screws into your bottomline to create a "raise-rearward". Although this does increase the overall length of the marker, it creates a much more comfortable shooting position and allows you to aim directly across the top (handy if you use a sight or scope, like I do).







If anyone is interested in purchasing one of these raise-rearward's, please PM me for further details.

[cledford]

Originally posted by borph

For those of us who own a Flatline, I have modified the design of the stock drop forward by adding 2 inches to the portion that screws into your bottomline to create a "raise-rearward". Although this does increase the overall length of the marker, it creates a much more comfortable shooting position and allows you to aim directly across the top (handy if you use a sight or scope, like I do).

If anyone is interested in purchasing one of these raise-rearward's, please PM me for further details.

Interesting concept, could you post a couple of pics? Thanks,

-Calvin

[SlartyBartFast]

With the rise of electros, I'm amazed no-one has taken the initiative to develop a speedball marker.

What I mean is, the position of the trigger is nolonger dependant on the position of the sear. So why not do something like the bullpup designed guns?

Build the marker so that you can butt it against your shoulder and have you firing arm extended comfortably.

[Jon S]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
With the rise of electros, I'm amazed no-one has taken the initiative to develop a speedball marker.

What I mean is, the position of the trigger is nolonger dependant on the position of the sear. So why not do something like the bullpup designed guns?

Build the marker so that you can butt it against your shoulder and have you firing arm extended comfortably.

I have had thoughts like that, found myself shouldering the m98s at my site and seeing how the front grip feels. I think that something like that (or a mag :)) could work out nicely as a bullpup. Low profile, but long and shoulderable.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Jon S
I have had thoughts like that, found myself shouldering the m98s at my site and seeing how the front grip feels. I think that something like that (or a mag :)) could work out nicely as a bullpup. Low profile, but long and shoulderable.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by borph
Read a few articles about the bullpup design, and you'll find that "it does nothing" for accuracy.

http://www.geocities.com/notorious_rugmuncher/Muzzlelite.html

It does look really comfortable, though.
http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...266#post254266

http://www.steyr-aug.com/article.htm
Austrian military trials then compared the AUG with the FN FAL (Austrian Stg 58 in 7.62mm NATO), the Czech Vz58 in 7.62x39 ComBloc, and the 5.56mm NATO FN CAL and Colt M16A1. The AUG proved to be at least as reliable as any of its competitors. It also proved to be superior in accuracy potential, target acquisition, handling characteristics, and full-auto fire controllability. In short, the AUG proved to be a winner.

P90 or F2000

[borph]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

True. That was a pretty bad example. What I meant was that the bullpup is an inherently inaccurate design because (as with any gun) the closer your sighting eye is to the muzzle, the worse your sight picture gets. This is why one should always hold a handgun at arm's length. However, expensive scopes can overcome this disadvantage with real bullpups.

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

I Google'd for bullpup accuracy and it seems to me that while the design is not necessarily suited for shooting at far away targets, it showed definite improvement in short range automatic fire. Which without a doubt makes it ideal for front players.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by borph
What I meant was that the bullpup is an inherently inaccurate design because (as with any gun) the closer your sighting eye is to the muzzle, the worse your sight picture gets.

Which is true only if you're using fixed iron sights and the end of the muzzle.

Many military weapons use raised sight bars/handles or sights. So shortening the length has no effect on the use of the weapon in terms of accuracy.

The real issues from military types against bullpups seem to be:
i - Dislike of something bizzare.
ii - The ejection of spent cases so close to the user. Non-ambidextrous design. (Many can be changed from left to right by moving a plate. The F2000 is truly different and ejects spent cartridges forward under the barrel.)
iii - Having to be shouldered, they expose more of the user when firing around corners.

Responses seem to be:
i - Get used to it.
ii - Well, addressed by the F2000 design certainly.
iii - You shouldn't shoot around corners in the first place. :)

[homis]

Hear me out on this one....

I know that several people have come up with working examples to this concept. What we are looking for is a lightweight, fairly accurate marker that has some ergonomic features built into it for the sake of increasing overall shooting performance and marksmanship. These goals are being pursued with the full knowledge of the accuracy limitations of current markers and paint. So, where does this leave my logic?

First thing we want to do is produce a lightweight gun with a heavy ended barrel. I am referencing basic biomechanics and engineering principles here. It is much better to have a disproportionate amount of weight of the gun in the muzzle/barrel, because the weight tends to help minimize jittering induced by the firer AND help with muzzle rise. See my sig to see the rig I shoot. I recently bought a device that effectively serves as a muzzle weight for the end of a stock length AutoMag barrel, and it (off the cusp) feels easier to control versus a MM barrel when rapid firing as well as slow aiming.

Second thing we want to do is remove as much weight from the rest of the marker. I'm not talking about using composites everywhere, but an X-Valve, ULE Body and a diet for the Mag (drilled out rail, etc) itself is probably in order.

Third thing is to reduce the weight of the marker as normally outfitted. That means going remote with HPA. I envision using a velcro strap-type system that effectively runs the remote line up the back and over the shoulder, attached at the arm (loosely) on the outer bicep and forearm and terminating into the marker. Also, a method where a Warp stores paint off the marker (either on the chest or back) and feeds through a hose tube up to the marker (which may require a warp on it to ensure plenty of positive feed pressure). I would be willing to live with just a warp on my gun if I could remove the hopper full of paint. We can even change the orientation and basic design of the on-gun warp to accomodate a feed coming from the bottom, side or angle to the marker. The feed hose would be secured by a strap system similar to the remote line.

Next, we need stability in the platform. As I have been shooting Mags since the mid-90's, most old schoolers will remember those T-stocks that were designed to screw into ASA adapters. These work great in the stock AGD back bottle adapter, allowing for a solid mount and comfortable shooting position. A foregrip is open for debate as to the trade-off in weight versus stability.

This brings me to my final concept (which although hinted at by previous posts here I don't feel was fully realized): separation of the mechanism for firing from the mechanism that fires. With the advent of electronically controlled markers, we can effectively separate the order to fire the marker from the mechanics of sending a paintball downrange.

I've envisioned a system that has remote air and remote paint storage(similar to what's described above), but has the activation unit (trigger) connected to the firing mechanism/barrel/breech (as it pertains to the actual action) electronically (as well as the warp(s) and hopper).

Battery storage would be off gun/warp(s)/hopper on perhaps a belt or butt pack, and in the place of the battery back (envision an EMag) could sit the modified on-gun warp. The marker itself could be designed to have the breech feed from the bottom (think an inverted centerfeed mag body with no neck and receiving paint from the on-gun warp system directly below), effectively lowering the marker profile and simplifying design (ie no external warp hose). This would allow for the development of a marker that is configurable in shape for all types of paintball.

Conventional woods ball (my favorite) would use a stocked, submachine gun type configuration. Reshaping the marker for the ergonomics of speedball would allow for compactness and excellent ergonomics to gain advantage in point shoot and high rate of fire situations. Thus, changing where the trigger resides in relation to the stock, barrel and breech is as simple as swapping different rails and stocks.

Finally, you can address some of the inherent issues with the remote, paint and electronic lines by designed clothing specifically (and ergonomically) for these tasks.

Anyone?

[Magluvr]

Only problem with the afore mentioned setup is: How would you feed the paint to the warp initially? You would need somesort of forcefeed system, (Maybe a halo or additional warp?). Unless you had the hopper and warp in the "backpack" and ran a "paint-hose" with the air-hose up to the gun.
I like the idea of running it through the bottom though, maybe you could have the paint-hose come over the shoulder down to the elbow and then "hang" for the remaining distance to the bottom of the gun.

[goat]

playing small

I read most of the thread and feel that the main feel for it may have been lost after the "playing small" portion.
The main reason for playing small is to get your body closer to the bunker...speedball is a game of angles and the further back off of your bunker you are the more likely you are to be eliminated......thats why long barrels and no drop forwards are a pain in the butt while playing speed ball, its just not an ideal situation to have the luxury of a long marker.....
What I do find interesting though is the lack of drop forwards and short barrels by the majority of "pro" teams...I noticed this while watching PUSH and you can see it in any magazine, at most they have a 45/4500 or 68/4500 on a very small rail or even the ocassional duck bill.
this might be attributed to the length of the fields these events are played on, alot of the fields that the majority of players are on would probably be swamped by the fields at World Cup.
Goat

[homis]

Magluvr,

The paint would be stored in a container (either conventional loader or something else), on the body, feeding the on-body Warp.

[Magluvr]

Homis,

I get what you are trying to do, I was just commenting that unless there is enough pressure on the paint stack leading from the loader to the "on gun warp" then no paintballs will even reach the warp to be fed into the gun. Essentially, a convential loader wouldn't have enough force to make the paintballs reach the warp, thats why I suggested maybe putting the warp in the backpack. The gun would be even smaller then. Just the gun with two hoses (one for paint, one for air) and one small electrical wire to intellifeed the warp in the pack.

I hope that makes sense now, I'm a confusing writer.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

i was reading this and it is informative but i think we was talking about this issue in another post.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189708

i used to play speedball but i play mostly woodsball now i have a qbow. and the rifle thing is all good in all until you gert into some bunkers or simulated cover the speedball has the advatage between the stock on my shoulder and the mask on my face. maybe if we didn't have to wear mask the idea of holding a firearm would be perfect. since you can not press your face against your firearm then you may as well be inaccurate take real firearm and put on you paint ball mask and fire. man your aim will be off you need to get behind the marker to fire it accurately. that is why air on the gun has been a good option or a t stock the only problem with the t stock is that with my q loader i don't switch hands to fire to the gun i twist it. you just have to learn to shot in akward postion the tradtional rifle stance movement would expose you longer or create to big of a profile smaller tighter profile is the way to go.

[ezrunner]

holy thread ressurection

Simliar topics albeit, but this is a much much older discussion. Look a the first post in each thread. We preceeded you by many moons lone wolf :)

i was reading this and it is informative but i think we was talking about this issue in another post.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189708

i used to play speedball but i play mostly woodsball now i have a qbow. and the rifle thing is all good in all until you gert into some bunkers or simulated cover the speedball has the advatage between the stock on my shoulder and the mask on my face. maybe if we didn't have to wear mask the idea of holding a firearm would be perfect. since you can not press your face against your firearm then you may as well be inaccurate take real firearm and put on you paint ball mask and fire. man your aim will be off you need to get behind the marker to fire it accurately. that is why air on the gun has been a good option or a t stock the only problem with the t stock is that with my q loader i don't switch hands to fire to the gun i twist it. you just have to learn to shot in akward postion the tradtional rifle stance movement would expose you longer or create to big of a profile smaller tighter profile is the way to go.