Crossfire Regs

[CenterFire]

So in other words Butter, you could lower the bps on full auto until the tank reg could keep up without dropping in pressure. The tank reg that could handle the most bps gets a medal :)

[cledford]

Let's get started...

It looks like the Crossfire reg is a good "kick-off" project - so let's get started :) Maybe we can use this as a "working thread" and then once we're done have a Mod create a sticky thread for the final review and results. That way users coming here from other boards will be able to quickly navigate to the "good stuff" with out having to wade through our other communications.

Since this will be our first endeavor - we'll need to work out a framework (template) for testing that we can reuse moving forward.

I've got a couple of suggestions for things we need to do to get started:

1) Investigate the product and gather the claims.

-This includes determine the exact product model to test for the manufactures line. (I suggest the same one shown in the video at their website.)

-Compiling a list of claims and/or tests to be verified. I've gotten some from their website and also from the video of the Angel test (which should be recreated by us). I've attached a list of claims below.

-Research patents, if applicable. They claim in the video that the Crossfire system is based on patented design. I called them to get the patent number and was told that the designer (Chris Havlock) was out today. I did a couple of quick patent searches and couldn't find one related to a reg associated with either Crossfire or Havlock. (They did have one on record for a barrel.) I'll follow up on this as patents have all kinds of useful info in them :) They could be using someone else's patent - I only had time for a quick search today.

2. Obtain sample of the product. If someone doesn't have a 4500 Crossfire system I'm willing to purchase one for this endeavor.

3. Establish testing protocol. (NEED INPUT FROM OTHERS HERE)

- Should have stated purpose that adheres to the mission statement to keep us on track and focused.

- We should brain storm all testing options.

4. Conduct tests.

5. Write report.

These are the first things I can think of. Attached below is some of the information I've gathered so far. Included is the URL for Crossfire Inc. (has video of their "Angel" test), links to reviews of Crossfire products at PBReview (might get some useful insight from "everyday" users), and quoted claims from the Crossfire website and video.

-Calvin

http://www.crossfireinc.com/

http://www.pbreview.com/250/1/0/

http://www.pbreview.com/642/1/0/

"more shots per fill"

"patented design that achieves awesome recharge rates during rapid firing"

"virtually no drop off during 11bps"

"unmatched quality and testing"

"fastest reacting and most reliable systems on the market."

"If you are looking for a regulator that can keep up with any gun Crossfire should be your choice."

"We just don't say ours has the highest flow rate we prove it."

"We attend the tournaments with 6 Angels set at 11 balls a second on full auto. On these markers there are certified liquid filled gauges displaying the performance, along with all of the competitions regs. Now, some of these systems perform well, and we are not afraid to show that. WE BEAT THEM ALL !"

"Constant pressure is critical to your accuracy and you know that if you are playing with a system that can't keep up, you are not as effective."

"At Crossfire we do extensive testing on our product to make sure it is safe. That is why we had all of our valves tested by an independent lab to meet and exceed the standards set by the CGA and ASTM."

[Koosh]

I think we should take all manufacturer's claims with a grain of salt...

Would any self-respecting company actually say "buy our product, and you will be the laughing stock of the feild!" of course not, they are going to want to make their product sound the best as it can be. That should be a given, and I don't think we should criticize their attempt to do that. If we do, we should start with Brass Eagle's claims... the raptor being a "tournament grade marker" hah...

But then again, I do see why we would need to cut through the BS that the companies say, which is really the point of this forum... But if you look at it, EVERY air system pretty much makes the same claims of being the most consistant, and best quality... It'll be tough, be we should test EVERY system!

[magman007]

guys, remember, take it one step at a time. One variable at a time. and make sure everytihng is done in a controlled enviroment. same time after the fill, exact same fill to the exact same presure, exact same temperature in the test facility. there are alot of variables you have to eliminate to test the one variable you want to test. good luck guys. Also, please test the system x tank, and so fourth. also, i tihnk we need to test between adj and pre set.

[Butterfingers]

Don has some cool flow restrictor device that we could use to determine pressure dropoff at a particular setting.

Or we can just hook it up to a really really fast full automatic gun and see how much it drops off. :)

All we really need now are liquid filled gauges and the tanks and a whole lot of air.

[hubadlatimmy]

Ok despite any video's you people see on the net of the new crossfire regs I saw them all in person at the Chicago Open, and the Crossfire reg did not have the highest recharge rate of the tanks they had sitting on the table.

If you have never been to a major NPPL event this is where you are missing out they lay out about 7 brands of tanks on that table all with angels on full auto and after I picked each one up and tested them this is how they ranked if I remember correctly

1. Air America Armaggeddon, a proven performer and one of the simplest reg designs in the world, I personally know the owner of this company he also helped invent the Automag valve which is very similar to the Armageddon regualtor. I am now going to quote the exact words of the guy at the crossfire booth

Me "Why does the Armaggeddon have so little drop off compared to the Crossfire that you guys are suppose to be demonstrating"

Tech "Look at the price difference in the 2 systems that one is $450 our is $200 and as far as screw in's go ours is by far the best out there."


2. Smart Parts Maxflow- Another proven performer and one of the only systems you can run on a gun without using a inline reg, they are that consistent.

3. 68/4500 Crossfire screw in, Yes it does rank third out of everything else and is by far the best screw in tank to ever be on the market in terms of recharge.

4. Nitro Duck Tuffskin mega reg 68/4500- In all my experience nitro duck makes a tank that is more consistent that it is made for recharge rate, they are in no way bad tanks and for $500 they arent the best on the list but are right up there with the maxlfow in terms of consitency.

5. A.I.R- Made by WDP and one that from everything I hear is a big letdown in all departments, it's not that consistent and the recharge rate is actually pretty bad.

6. PMI 68/4500 screw in- 2nd best screw in tank on the market and alittle bit more expensive than the crossfire, and also not as consistent. I also learned from the owner of Air America that PMI has had more recalls in the paintball industry than any other company. I saw a kids tank threaded in the wrong direction 2 weeks ago and it was made by PMI

6. ACI 68/4500 screw in- What can I say when we get this low on the list it pretty much means it's worse than anything else on the market and isn't really worth buying.

Now when I tested them all the Armaggeddon won hands down not a problem in terms of recharge rate, and came in 2nd on consistency only to the maxflow. They are both great high end tanks but I prefere the Armaggeddon. I hope I set a few people strait with this post and I know it's long but it also has tons of info for all you people out there that have been misinformed by the internet.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by hubadlatimmy
...Now when I tested them all the Armaggeddon won hands down... ...I hope I set a few people strait with this post and I know it's long but it also has tons of info for all you people out there that have been misinformed by the internet.

Let me get this strait... you came to this conclusion just by how the gun feels in your hands shooting it full auto at only 11 bps?

Sheeesh, who needs a dyno when you can just hold down the trigger of an 11 bps full auto Angel?

[Drizit]

He didn't do it by feel. he did it by the big oil filled guages attached to the guns. I to have seen that test at Skyball but they only had 4 setup. However the one thing i wonder about is the velosity settings of the guns in question, if the angel with the crossfire was set lower it would need less pressure then the others, and therefore shoot down less.

i have a crossfire 68/4500 if anyone around Toronto wants to do some test.

[rudy]

well I personally am going to need some numbers not this one is better then that one and so on. I want to know how much better. I want to be able to do a single test on a new system and get some numbers so that I can compare it to an older test. not gee well is seems like it was slower then the one i did the test on a few months back. also they all have to be compared on the same gun, same paint, same velocity if thats how you test. not only does velocity matter but some guns just hog more air to get the same velocity as others.

[magman007]

ok, heres a problem. Why are they testing on angels? if there using angels, and using preset tanks, im assuming htere using the angel minireg in the front correct? well we all kno that the minireg has horid recharge rate. I propose that if you test the tanks, you test them on an e-mag or some sort of retro valve. Or use an air america unireg. remember that the marker in question has to recharge as fast, if not faster than the tank can.

[Jack & Coke]

Good point...

[hubadlatimmy]

Ok I am not going on just how it felt I picked up every one and counted to 5 evenlly like 1 one thousand until I got to 5 on each tank. I should of said that earlier but I agree if theres any way we can do it on a gun with a better recharge rate we should try. I am willing to help in any way I can. I can get exact recharge rates and everything from dan on any of the air america tanks if you guys want. I know him pretty well and wouldn't mind telling him what we are doing.

[Doc Nickel]

Okay, two things I see here:

A) If I understand the Crossfire demo correctly, then they have, at the booth, a whole row of Angels, with various air systems, set at 11BPS/FA, correct?

All right- did anyone check to see if the dwell was the same on all of them? Were they set to the same velocity? LPR pressure? Did they all have the same valves and hammers? The same "volumizer" or lack thereof? Was the output of all the systems set the same? Was the output of all the Angel regs set the same?

Something as simple as pulling a single shim out of the LPR could drop the ram pressure 10 to 20 psi, which would consequently drop the output velocity, and thus the draw from the tank. All else, input pressure, dwell and ROF could be left exactly the same, and it'd take a trained ear to hear the insignificant difference in sound of the shot.

And B) Who "certified" these gauges? Oil-filled, as noted, doesn't by definition mean an accurate gauge- the oil merely damps oscillations of the needle. Point in fact, if one is testing an extremely fast "rapid drop" situation precisely as we're investigating, then one does NOT want a liquid filled gauge.

The damping of the fill would slow the needle to below that of the pressure spikes reaction, giving an artificially "low" (less deflection indicated than present) reading. And that right there makes me think the demonstration is somehow "rigged".

Additionally, something as simple as a tiny center-punch on the gauge input passage can do the same thing- restrict flow into and out of the gauge just enough that the extremes of the needle travel are damped out, giving a reading more 'stable' than the actual.

And finally, as a smidgen of evidence, when I was installing a Level 10 kit in a customer's RT, he had provided a 68/3K "32Degrees" screw-in tank, and a 90/4500 NitroDuck MicroReg. The 32D could NOT supply the L10 fast enough- anything over two shots per second would invaribly lead to the second shot being a "misfire" as if the bolt tripped. Single shots, slowly, were fine and up to full speed. Two rapid pulls resulted in one shot and one "pfft".

Swapping in the Nitro Duck immediately brought the system back- it kept up with the LX even into RT sweet-spot mode.

I did put a gauge on both tanks to check outputs, but I can't recall the exact numbers right now.

Doc.

[Butterfingers]

Another thing to consider is the fill pressure in the tanks.

If the crossfire was at 4500 psi and the other tanks were below 1000 obviously the crossfire would recharge faster. There is a greater pressure diffrential.

[magnj]

Im still waiting for the anwer to Jack and COkes question. I have a retro and a non adjustable tank. Im not gettin ne retro out of my gun. Ijust ordered a new on.off and reg seat ill see if that helps. What Is the cheapest adjustable tank?