ULT eMag problem solved?

[hitech]

As I understand it the problem with the ULT trigger when used in an eMag is that it slows down the return too much. What if we used the ULT trigger, a small solenoid and for the return stroke reversed the polarity of the solenoid causing it to push instead of pull?

[nippinout]

I don't know if AGD has thought about this one.

But reversing is easy enough. One concern could be adding more time to the cycle time, lowering bps.

[BlackVCG]

If you had it push instead of pull, the relaxed state would be with the sear down (seperated from the bolt). You'd have to redesign the sear to work with a solenoid that pushed.

[FooTemps]

is it possible to use a 2 way solenoid? maybe a smaller solenoid?

[nippinout]

Right hand rule and use relays. It would make a bulky set up heheheh

[hitech]

Originally posted by BlackVCG
If you had it push instead of pull, the relaxed state would be with the sear down (seperated from the bolt). You'd have to redesign the sear to work with a solenoid that pushed.

That's not what I meant. To fire you power the solenoid the normal way and it pulls. After the existing solenoid on time you reverse the current to the solenoid causing it to push thus insuring a quick return.

I can't see why it wouldn't work, and work well.

[lamby]

solenoids either push or pull, not both. If you want it to return (push) just install a spring.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by lamby
solenoids either push or pull, not both. If you want it to return (push) just install a spring.

And then the point of installing the ULE trigger would be.....

[nippinout]

Originally posted by lamby
solenoids either push or pull, not both. If you want it to return (push) just install a spring.

The solenoid is pushing or pulling depending on how you orient it. It also can have it's resting position at extended or closed also depend on orientation.

Simple right hand rule... apply the current in 'reverse' through the coil. Relays are our friend.

[lamby]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


And then the point of installing the ULE trigger would be.....

To remove the RT effect. The only reason to put the ULT in the emag in the first place. There is no reason to reverse the current when all you need to do the same thing is install a spring under the plunger to push up on the sear (thus taking the load off of the on/off pin) This will only work if there is enough power in the solenoid to 1: overcome the energy of the spring, and 2: still fire the marker.

Easy to do, due the reduced force that would be required to fire the marker

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by lamby

Easy to do, due the reduced force that would be required to fire the marker

But, you've reduced the force required to fire the marker by installing the ULT and the INCREASED the force required from the solenoid by installing the spring. Remeber the solenoid would have to overcome spring force to fire.

So the endresult for E-mode would be what? Seems to me you'd be exactly back where you started. Except perhaps you'd eliminate much of the hybrid mode effect.

[lamby]

exactly. Is that not what this thread was about? What else would you want an ULT in an emag for?

You are right that manual would be the same, or even a harder pull but to reduce the RT effect would have a large benifit to tourney guys like me that had "trigger bounce" issues because of the rt valve

[SlartyBartFast]

But if you only want to eliminate hybrid, why not just remove the trigger rod?

[lamby]

uh.. you must not be familure with what happened to me in Chicago at the PSP.

One chono ref was giving me heat for pulling the trigger rod. Saying that the marker could not be chronoed correctly to measure for "shootup" as per AGD proceedure without the trigger rod.

almost had 3 markers dq'ed, complained, was allowed to play, but then I had to "fix" them before I would be allowed on the field again. Next game 2 guns could not shoot quickly because I had the input pressure so low to eliminate rt bounce (550psi). Lost the game because of it.

I then came here and started a crusade that has upset alot of people. Hitech (the starter of this thread) was one of the only people that supported and understood my problem and my fight. (thanks)

anyway that is a dead horse now. I still have the emag, but I bought an IR3 for a new primary tourney marker. The emag is my "woods" gun now.

If the following items were fixed the e/xmag would be a perfect gun IMO:

1) eliminate all reactivity
2) replace the HES with a interupt switch (either hall or led based)
3) more power to adjust the circuit board timing and control. Expecially the second control output for the warp. WAS is going to fix this on the warp side though.
4) an interupt circuit to bypass the firing electronics if the gun is in manual or hybrid mode. (to eliminate the two shots per pull, firing both electronic and manual if pulled slow)

Fix these four items and the e/x would be a force, and there would be no way to dq them.

[athomas]

Originally posted by lamby


If the following items were fixed the e/xmag would be a perfect gun IMO:

1) eliminate all reactivity
2) replace the HES with a interupt switch (either hall or led based)
3) more power to adjust the circuit board timing and control. Expecially the second control output for the warp. WAS is going to fix this on the warp side though.
4) an interupt circuit to bypass the firing electronics if the gun is in manual or hybrid mode. (to eliminate the two shots per pull, firing both electronic and manual if pulled slow)

I have to agree with some of your concerns.

The reactivity can be reduced to almost zero by using the stock on/off assembly of a standard AIR valve or the new ULT assembly. The ULT assembly will reduce the rate of fire though.

The gun does need a switch that only allows manual or electronic, not both (hybrid). This would eliminate the double fire problem. I mentioned this problem last year. Hopefully it can be addressed as it is becoming a greater issue.

The control of the circuit board timing is not so much of an issue with an emag as it is with other guns. The bolt takes a certain amount of time to move forward. The air takes a certain amount of time to fire the ball. The bolt takes a certain amount of time to return to the open position. These parameters can't be adjusted electronically as with other guns. The only thng that can be adjusted is the time before another shot can be fired. On many guns this is done via debounce or ball in place settings. On the mag it is done via rate of fire settings.

The HES of the mag is a good way to activate the firing sequence. There is no trigger bounce issues with this setup. There have been issues with interference of some sort that can cause multiple activations. This should and can be addressed once the exact source of the problem is found.

I still don't know why chrono judges pull an emag because of no trigger rod. Using this methodology they should also pull any gun with a WAS board unless it can be chronoed at a high rate of fire because of the potential for "programmed shootup".