ULT eMag problem solved?

[paintballbeaver]

his was mechanical, i'm talking about E controled hence E_MAG

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by paintballbeaver
his was mechanical, i'm talking about E controled hence E_MAG

So, replace his micro 3-way with a solenoid valve from one of the electro-cocker conversions and control it with the current E-mag board...

[paintballbeaver]

well pretty much SOLVES THE PROBLEM DOESNT IT :)

[hitech]

Sure, if you want a 'mag that works like a cocker. That is a lot of extra parts (LPR, hoses/fittings to attach it to the HP supply and hoses/fittings to attach it to the ram, a ram and a linkage to attach it to the solenoid). I'd much rather just add a few transistors and supporting electronic parts to the circut board.

Additionally you would most likely loose mechnical mode. Pushing against the ram would increase the trigger pull tremendously.

[paintballbeaver]

aight i give up you win :) but i still stand by my idea :)

[hitech]

It's a good enough idea that someone has already done it. It's just not what I was trying to accomplish.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by hitech
Additionally you would most likely loose mechnical mode.

Not necesarily. If the piston (ram)is in place of the current solenoid, what would change? The trigger rod would still hit the trigger.

Originally posted by hitech
Pushing against the ram would increase the trigger pull tremendously.

You wouldn't pull against the piston.
You don't pull against the solenoid now do you?

Punisher's design used a sliding Cocker frame. If instead you're using the Mag frame, all that needs to be outside the frame is the LPR and solenoid valve. The ram would be in the frame.

It might even be possible to cram both the ram and solenoid valve into the frame.

If the electronics held the piston for a franction of a second, it would be impossible to get an electronic and mechanical shot. If the piston/sear/trigger rod were held in firing position, your finger would travel all the way back and then be given a kick when the piston was de-pressrized.

[hitech]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
You wouldn't pull against the piston.
You don't pull against the solenoid now do you?

No, you push against the solenoid when you pull the trigger. So, you would push against the ram when you pulled the trigger (all this is in mech mode). That ram is going to be hard to push against.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by hitech
No, you push against the solenoid when you pull the trigger.

Want to think that through a little? The solenoid gives ZERO resistance to trigger travel.

When you're firing mechanically, when the trigger hits the trigger rod to move the sear, the solenoid core just moves....

If the piston had no air in it, it would just move in and out. Take one of a cocker and move the shaft in and out. Any resistance?

When the piston is pressurised, it would push up against the sear closing the on/off and releasing the bolt. This would actually pull the trigger rod in REDUCING force on the trigger to NIL.

When the piston is depresurized, the on/off would opena and the sear would catch the bolt. The trigger rod would push against the trigger with the full reactive force of the RT valve.

[SlartyBartFast]

Here's two questions:
1- What's the current force the solenoid puts out when it's energised to fire the E-Mag?

2- How far does the solenoid core travel?

[ZyperioN]

Um for the people who are saying solenoids are only push or pull your wrong, very wrong. They do make push/pull solenoids, it's just a matter of finding the perfect size one. www.jameco.com carries them

[Wat]

Several points

A solenoid activator (a solenoid in itself is just the wire coil) at its simpliest is a wire coil and ferrous core or plunger. The core does not have to be a permenant magnet. The core of most solenoids are not permenant magnets because of costs and you don't need one for pulling. If using a non magnetic core, energizing the coil can only draw the core in. You can swap polarity, but energizing the coils can only draw in a non magnetic core (you can activate a non magnetic core solenoid with an AC source, though your core may get hot). However, many solenoids are spring loaded to return the core to the extended position. After that, you can get a bit fancier and use a magnetic core which if set up right can push instead of pull and can swap directions by flipping the core or the polarity, but you can never get a non magnetic core to do anything but be pulled in when energized.

This is how it works in a non magnetic core. The force a magnet generates is calculated by F = Current X Magnetic Field (X is actually a cross product because current and magnetic field are vectors). So to generate a magnetic force, we need to have a current passing through a magnetic field. When we energize the coils, a current is induced in the non magnetic core. Due to some law (i think its Lens' law) the current is such that its in the opposite direction of the magnetic field. So when we energize the coils, current is induced in the core, and thus the current in the magnetic field creates a force pulling the core in. If we flip the polarity on the coil so now the magnetic field is going in the opposite direction, the current it induced in the core also flips so its still opposite the magnetic field and the core is still pulled into the coil.


(wait, i got this part wrong, lemme think about it again, but flipping the polarity on the coil also flips what ever is induced in the door so that the net result is that the core always goes in)

So to sum up, if you have a magnetic core solenoid, you can flip polarity or flip the core to make it go the other way. If you have a non magnetic core, you can never ever make it do anything but pull in.

[hitech]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
When you're firing mechanically, when the trigger hits the trigger rod to move the sear, the solenoid core just moves....

It has VERY little resistance, but it still pushes against it.

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
If the piston had no air in it, it would just move in and out...When the piston is de-pressurized, the on/off would open and the sear would catch the bolt.

If you use a ram that only uses air pressure to work in one direction and relies on the on/off to push it back you would still have the same problems as the emag has now with using a UTL. The UTL doesn't reset the trigger fast enough. Using a ram that only worked in the fire direction and relied on the UTL to reset it wouldn't gain anything over the emag solenoid.

If you use a ram that uses air pressure in both the fire and return directions you would most likely loose mechanical mode.