Idea for a cocker 3-way on crack

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  • Enos Shenk
    Shenko Heavy Industries
    • Nov 2003
    • 76

    #1

    Idea for a cocker 3-way on crack

    I spent about a month tinkering around with a design for a gun only to realize that i basically unknowingly redesigned the matrix. Along the way, i was playing with an idea for a 2-stage 3-way valve, that would use a very small movement of an actuating rod to move a larger spool, in effect letting a very small motion operate a relatively high flowing valve.

    After i realized i was spending time designing something thats already existed, i started considering the "amp valve" as i was calling it as a possible cocker upgrade.

    Im sort of shaky on whether or not it would work, and right now i lack the capability to develop a prototype to find out. Hopefully soon i might be purchasing a small lathe to tinker with some parts for various guns, but right now its just a concept.

    Anyway, since nobody really wants mechanical cockers anymore, and since the people here on automags are some of the smartest folks on any paintball forums, i figured i would see who could find some flaws in my design. Im absolutely sure theres things im overlooking, or flat out wrong about, so have at it.

    Heres a labeled sketch i scanned in and cleaned up to show to some other folks:



    The general concept is the actuating rod when pushed, moves the upper of the small o-rings on the bottom of the rod past the pilot air hole which would be intentionally drilled as small as possible for the smallest possible travel. Air released from the pilot would fill the chamber of the valve below the spool, forcing it up like a ram. The spool itself would function as the 3-way valve. When the pressure on the rod is let off, the spring would return the rod to its rest position (retained by a small snap ring or some other device), the air holding the spool would vent out exhaust holes at the top, and another spring would return the spool to its rest position.

    Im not even sure if this would be worth building. Maybe just to do it and have it on my cocker for kicks (if it works), but i imagine it would be too expensive to make to sell. The idea would be to combine a very small throw with large flow across the 3-way itself, but i imagine the orracle and CT 3-way's accomplish much the same effect using the "lots of tiny holes" method. Not to mention the adjustable timing on the 3-way is just cool.

    Things im not sure about: I imagine the diameter of the rod, compared to the diameter of the hole in the spool would determine the speed of exhausting the pilot air to return the valve. I also thought perhaps air would get between the exhaust flare at the top of the rod, and the top of the spool and equalize pressure on both sides of the spool, returning it, so i thought perhaps an o-ring mounted somehow in the top of the spool to seal againt the flare would help. But i might be insane, and it might not be necessary.

    Anyway, thoughts?
    --Enos Shenk
    --Moderator http://www.tippmann.com
    --Admin http://www.paintballchat.net
  • bertmcmahan
    Not pop, it's all Coke
    • Jan 2002
    • 1960

    #2
    OK First off...




    WELCOME TO AO!!!!!
    :)




    Anyway about your design. It will never work because...






    Nah just kidding. I think it looks great. Theoretically it seems pretty sound. Machining it could get kinda hard, simply cause it's really small. LOL it would be funny if you reinvented the hAIR :). That is a really good idea, unless there's something blatant that I'm just missing. It would need to be a little talller than your current design, cause I don't think that the spool will have enough room to switch to it's second position. I am a bit confused however on the thing about the exhaust flange and all, and what you're worried about. Maybe rewording it or something might help. Hang on a sec, after thinking a little more and examining the picture I think I get it. You're worried about air from output 1 leaking around the spool, correct? Hmm.. The more I think about it, there needs to be some other changes, too. I think whichever port is not currently activated needs to be venting to allow the cylinder to shift, right? I don't have a cocker and am not entirely sure as to how they work (in theory I know, but the details are sketchy). What if you just made the whole thing a little bit tighter together than it is now, and added a vent port that would allow the cylinder to shift when the main supply is connected to the other port? Anyway, I really like the idea, it just needs a smidge of tweaking. I'd actually really like to try to make one myself, the only problem being where to find such small orings .

    Oh yeah, I remembered something. They make air piloted valves for use in industrial applications, you might want to look into something like that, cause I have no clue how they work. Well good luck, I will be following this closely, and I'll let you know if I think of anything else (which I probably wont ) You'll see me around Deep Blue and the Workshop a lot, I love thinking over ideas and stuff. You might want to check into a thread of mine about no bolt springs for mags if you want to. A lot of good discussion going on, plus I'd like to see some of your ideas. BTW, pretty good for a 4th post!
    AIM-bertmcmahan
    My email:[email protected]
    My feedback thread
    Good traders: richie,Roguefactor,moufo48,845,brtncstm160,vf-xx

    Mags don't shoot darts... they shoot nails.
    I used to be bertmcmahan, that I did.

    Comment

    • Enos Shenk
      Shenko Heavy Industries
      • Nov 2003
      • 76

      #3
      Hehe i registered an account here to engage in the original thread about the tac one. I mostly lurk about now, reading but never often responding.

      I have absolutely no idea why i never considered putting bomb style exhaust ports on the main valve to exhaust the ram. I was thinking wrong, somehow you made me see the light. This has paid off already

      As for the room to switch, yeah my drawing is probably not too accurate, i just freehanded it with a ruler and cleaned it up in photoshop a bit.

      Small Parts (www.smallparts.com) sells small enough o-rings for this i believe.

      I wouldnt be suprised if i came up with the same idea nicad did for his hair trigger. I already reinvented that once when i was toying around with a pneumatic sear tripper for a tippmann 98, i sure as hell dont want to again.

      Clippard makes air piloted valves. They use sort of a membrane to switch ports, its pretty wacky. The downside is the valve itself is about a 1.5" diameter cylinder.
      --Enos Shenk
      --Moderator http://www.tippmann.com
      --Admin http://www.paintballchat.net

      Comment

      • bertmcmahan
        Not pop, it's all Coke
        • Jan 2002
        • 1960

        #4
        LOL that's what this forum is all about. Anyway I'm not too up on my terminology, what exactly is a bomb style exhaust? I think I know where youre coming from but I need all the help I can get. I'm looking at that small parts.com place; I can't beleive I never saw that before! Thanks for the info!
        AIM-bertmcmahan
        My email:[email protected]
        My feedback thread
        Good traders: richie,Roguefactor,moufo48,845,brtncstm160,vf-xx

        Mags don't shoot darts... they shoot nails.
        I used to be bertmcmahan, that I did.

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        • bertmcmahan
          Not pop, it's all Coke
          • Jan 2002
          • 1960

          #5
          Well I looked at the small orings part of that site just now...
          Man are they small! 1/32?!?!?!? Wow, and cheap too-1.00 for 25! Dude, I got some building to do.
          AIM-bertmcmahan
          My email:[email protected]
          My feedback thread
          Good traders: richie,Roguefactor,moufo48,845,brtncstm160,vf-xx

          Mags don't shoot darts... they shoot nails.
          I used to be bertmcmahan, that I did.

          Comment

          • impact301
            Proud emag owner
            • Jan 2004
            • 95

            #6
            Really interesting! If the hair does use a standard 3 way imagine what you have just given them...

            Comment

            • Enos Shenk
              Shenko Heavy Industries
              • Nov 2003
              • 76

              #7
              Originally posted by bertmcmahan
              LOL that's what this forum is all about. Anyway I'm not too up on my terminology, what exactly is a bomb style exhaust? I think I know where youre coming from but I need all the help I can get. I'm looking at that small parts.com place; I can't beleive I never saw that before! Thanks for the info!
              Sometimes i dont know what im thinking. Ignore that whole bit i said about exhaust, i just looked at my own drawings and realized it wouldnt work on there anyway.

              Heres the way the exhaust works on a bomb (stolen from haveblue.org)

              --Enos Shenk
              --Moderator http://www.tippmann.com
              --Admin http://www.paintballchat.net

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              • impact301
                Proud emag owner
                • Jan 2004
                • 95

                #8
                This is basicaly a piloted 3 way same principle that is used in your standard intimidator 4 way... there are better ways of doing it though im trying to find a diagram of a piloted solenoid valve...

                Comment

                • Enos Shenk
                  Shenko Heavy Industries
                  • Nov 2003
                  • 76

                  #9
                  Well the concept of an air piloted valve is pretty much universal. Im not a fan of electronic stuff, so im not really up on the inner workings of solenoid valves.

                  I finally made some sense out of autocad and spent about 4 hours working out measurements on things based on available o-rings, standard cocker 3-way stuff (threaded end and rod), and fittings.

                  Im sure theres some parts not too accurate, but it was mainly just to see how it would look fit for real parts.

                  --Enos Shenk
                  --Moderator http://www.tippmann.com
                  --Admin http://www.paintballchat.net

                  Comment

                  • impact301
                    Proud emag owner
                    • Jan 2004
                    • 95

                    #10
                    questions... yeah the is a great idea for a compact piloted valve but how is the pilot air going to get vented?

                    Comment

                    • Enos Shenk
                      Shenko Heavy Industries
                      • Nov 2003
                      • 76

                      #11
                      Around the stem and through the exhaust holes the flare on the rod covers up.
                      --Enos Shenk
                      --Moderator http://www.tippmann.com
                      --Admin http://www.paintballchat.net

                      Comment

                      • impact301
                        Proud emag owner
                        • Jan 2004
                        • 95

                        #12
                        Its gonna be very tricky to figure out the right allowance from the actuating stem to the spool because you need to be able to generate enough fore for to drive the spool back while also having enough flow so that the spool goes back to resting position relitively quickly.

                        Comment

                        • junk7488
                          Registered User
                          • Oct 2002
                          • 10

                          #13
                          this is probably too complicated but:

                          Comment

                          • Enos Shenk
                            Shenko Heavy Industries
                            • Nov 2003
                            • 76

                            #14
                            Wow old bump. Thats a cool idea, the only problem is i dont see how it could be actually built that way.
                            --Enos Shenk
                            --Moderator http://www.tippmann.com
                            --Admin http://www.paintballchat.net

                            Comment

                            • wolfwood_is_here
                              6' 8" Nate...
                              • Sep 2004
                              • 59

                              #15
                              cheap orings

                              I am sure Harbor Freight has the orings you need. And for a LOT cheaper.

                              Type "o ring" into the keyword search. We have 385 piece o-ring sets for under 10 bucks!

                              Check it out if you are into making your own mods, but can never seem to find just the right sized oring, never a problem anymore...
                              If I am wrong in my thinking, please let me know. If you think I am wrong and are too lazy to say why, don't waste anyones time by posting.
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