How many times can an autococker cycle per second?

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by Grey_Goose


Also, is anyone doing shot or dwell lower than 6?

El Pirata from PBC is running his FF race at 4 on both shot and dwell.
Mine are in the 8 range, with 17 and 18 for CTC and CTO. My load time is 40, which gives me a BPS of 11.5ish according to the program.

I hit around 9 in bursts, I've never outrun the gun as I just don't shoot that fast.

I guess I could set it to FA and do it... but what's the fun in that?

DR

[Paladin]

"electro" Doesn't really effect the operation of the gun. Just the trigger feel. the "electro" parts are just how soem people here are choosing to measure their guns.

(GP) On most of the electro setups I've seen on cockers, one of the biggest limitations to cycling speed is the air flow through the 4-way/5-way valve or the barb fittings for the tubing. Same often holds true with mechanical setups as well.


right now we know that a cocker can fire more than 20 times a seccond with palladins testing. So I suppose we are just down to the ponit of gettign a reg that can recharge that fast (the stabilizer can do 20... )

(GP)Keep in mind that force feeding is required to go over about 10-12 bps. The Stabilizer will provide adequate air supply for 30 bps or more at about 500 psi if the gun is properly tuned and operating efficiently but the automation system components and fittings also have to be able to keep up.


I'm wondering waht fatter hoses will do for how fast the gun can be made to cycle.

(GP) Fatter hoses may help a tad bit but the flow restriction for the automation is in the fittings/hose barbs and the size of the air passages in and out of the 4-way. Many of the 4-way valves currently on the market have very small holes (.050" or less)for the o-rings on the spool to pass over in the body of the valve and only .040" to .050" air passage thru the barb fitting. Common tubing used on 'cockers is .062" ID.

Currently I just crank up the pressure on my rock to keep the gun cycling as crisply as I like. (I use that term becasue that's the way the gun feels when a LPR is adjusted "right" Just like the blazer)

(GP) With the "buit-in" format of the automation components of the Blazer and the hi flow design of our 4-way, it does not suffer from flow restrictions at all so the pressure from the Rock can be kept lower and maintain high cycle speed. Less wear and tear on the 4-way and ram plus generally smoother operation.
Also, as an adendum to something that TK posted earlier
with his calculations of pressure requirements for 300 bps rate; He stated that the 'cockers use a 1/4" bore ram but that is only partially true. Stock rams and most aftermarket rams for the 'cocker (including our QuikRam) are 3/8" or 10mm. There is one company out there marketing a 1/4" bore ram for the 'cocker but it is just too small to do the job properly as it requires too much pressure to cycle the gun effectively and overworks the seals on the other components.

Hmm... still need to build a test rig... [/B][/QUOTE][B]

[Paladin]

Not very likely.

Originally posted by einhander619
90 bps sounds a little more plausible, still nuts, though!

(GP)While it may be possible for pneumatic automation to function at 90 cycles per second, I don't think it very likely that a 'cocker can be made to do it if it is asked to fire the same as it would if shooting paint. That would be asking the valve to deliver enough air to get the ball to speed 5400 times per minute. (high speed, single barrel firearms can get up to about 1200 RPM but then the action has quite a bit farther to move too) Seems to me that if you add up the time it takes to move the sear; for hammer travel; for valve dwell, ram travel both ways and feeding, even with force feeding, there doesn't seem to be enough milliseconds to go around. Also, the bolt would have to be moving so fast that it would likely break every ball it tried to slap into the barrel. Maybe "Perfect Circle" plastic balls could stand it but I doubt normal paint would.

I think I'm going to forward this thread to my physics prof, he'll probably make a test question out of it. Even if a cocker did 90 bps, it probably couldn't sustain it for more than a few seconds before it would simply fly apart!

(GP) Probably not fly apart real quick if built half way decent; and with a buffered ram to absorb some of the shock force of the reciprocating mass. However, you couldn't expect much in the way of longevity. :-)

Now, Tom, I didn't do the math, but following your example, 90 cycles a second would take something on the order of around 600 psi input pressure to the ram, correct?

(GP) I think you will find that flow rate will be more of a factor to high cycling speeds than pressure numbers are.
It only takes about 10 pounds of force to cycle the action against the hammer spring and a standard 10mm ram will acomplish that at about 80 psi. LP pneumatic components are typically rated to 150 psi. Once you have enough force to overcome resistance, you only need adequate flow rate to get it done quickly. For example: Consider a big, pneumatic jack hammer (say a 90 pounder commonly used in construction) They cycle extremely fast, something near 4000 blows per minute (66 per second) but air input is very high volume at only about 125 to 150 psi.

So much for low pressure...

Well, "low pressure" (depending on where you draw the line) is not all that it is hyped up to be anyway. The concept is certainly better for marketing than it is for shooting paintballs most effectively out of most paintguns.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by MrMag
it is SO hard to get a cocker over 9pbs. now i admit that i dont own one. but i have tried my friends old one, and the trigger and bolt just wont allow u to fire anything close to what er has stated. i am not a math/physics wizz like tk, but i can say this with complete assurance. this could be different w/ a racegun however.

It is not difficult at all to get a 'cocker to cycle faster than 9-10 bps but getting the human nervous system to operate faster is another story.
At 50+ years old, My nervous system operates at about 7 bps
(maybe 8bps when the game is on and adrenaline is up)
while my 25 year old son can shoot the same gun at about 12 bps.

[Paladin]

Correction

Originally posted by nerobro
IIRC the piston in a stock cocker is 3/16" not 1/4" That changes things singifigantly. the only ones with the 1/4" or smaller are the clippard minirams...

The piston diameter in a stock 'cocker is 3/8"-.375" .11 sq in. Same as the original clippard ram that was std on older 'cockers.
The miniram marketed by ANS is 6.5mm -.255" bore .049 sq in.
The Palmer QuikRam is 10mm -.393" bore .121 sq in.
The bore size of the ram used on Blazers and Typhoons is 7/16" or .412" = .133 sq in

With equal pressure and air passage sizes a larger bore will be just a tad slower moving as it takes slightly longer to fill the area behind the piston to get it moving. On the other hand, it will start moving before full pressure is reached behind it because of more force generated by the larger surface area. Thus, a larger bore takes much less pressure to do the same job and with adequate flow potential will move more than fast enough.
Then to soften and speed up the return stroke, we put an extra large shaft in it to reduce the surface area of the back of the piston.
With full use of the S.W.A.G method(scientific, wild assed guess) I estimate the maximum cycling speed of pneumatic automation (pneumation)and a dual acting linear cylinder/ram in a paintgun is going to be around 40 to 45 cycles/shots per second with compressed air/N2 and 30 to 35 with CO2.
The sad part is that eventually we will have a feed system and the understanding of how to reach such insane rates of fire with our paintguns; but what will we gain in doing so? More potential for serious injury? More anger and revenge on the field? More battered newbies that won't come out again? More disgruntled veterans (like myself) that truely loved the game of Paintball but find it lost to the to the games of Paintgun or Painball? (really miss the good old days when "Game" was the general topic of conversation in the staging area and the usual measure of a players skills. These days it is hard to find a conversation that doesn't revolve around the equipment and/or how much paint you can throw in a 5 min match or how many times you can hit someone before they can call themselves out)

Sorry, I'll get off my soap box now.

[DarkRipper]

/me waves at Glenn


DR

[nicad]

The piston diameter in a stock 'cocker is 3/8"-.375" .11 sq in. Same as the original clippard ram that was std on older 'cockers.
The miniram marketed by ANS is 6.5mm -.255" bore .049 sq in.
The Palmer QuikRam is 10mm -.393" bore .121 sq in.
The bore size of the ram used on Blazers and Typhoons is 7/16" or .412" = .133 sq in

Glen- you da man, but you already knew that.
Thanks for posting this info.. I think its very useful for people to understand differences in pneumatic systems.
Also, I did not realize the QuikRam was designed with a larger shaft.. iv often wondered why this wasnt done (which it has for years, apperantly!) more often.. makes life so much more easier to setup a pinch-before-chop system.

out!

[AGD]

God I am SO glad Glen is here!!

AGD

[Vegeta]

Glen-
I totally agree with you view on the sport...
I find myself talking more about money spent and how much paint I lay down now much more than what I did when I played pump woods games. I really kick myself for it, but Paintball has evolved into a 'Rice Whore' sport. The more flashy you and your gun are.. the more influence you have on hte people around you.



OK sorry to get off topic. Back to the cycling.
Pnematic systems have their limits, as Glen described. Maybe the air in the lines between the 3 way and ram could be replaced with a water/oil driven hydraulic mini system? make it a bit heavier but the rate of actuating would be faster and mroe powerful than air. So basically we would be pushing water with air from a reg.. dunno if that limits anything or not. But dyed green water in clear tubes on a front block would own. (again with the flashiness)

[Paladin]

Originally posted by AGD
God I am SO glad Glen is here!!

AGD

Howdy folks,
I really like the way this forum lets you know when someone has responded to a message. Helps me keep in touch even after being away for awhile.

Was out of the country for the last 7 weeks. Thailand is a wonderful place this time of year. Very hot usually, but if can stay near water or in the mountains it isn't bad at all.

I'm going to try to help get one of the Thai teams here to the US for some tournaments. They too are stuck on speedball and glitsy equipment but man-o-man can they play ball and VERY honorably too. The air-bunker fields are perfectly suited to them and they are going to surprize the hell out of the top teams hear. (They don't play much in the woods/jungle there because ther are a few too many evil critters to deal with.)
Palmers Pursuit is likely to have a branch office in Thailand in the not too distant future. hehe

Any chance AGD will be at the big Scenerio Game at Skirmish, PA next month ? If not, will see you at the IOA in August.

[Paladin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vegeta
Glen-
I totally agree with you view on the sport...
I find myself talking more about money spent and how much paint I lay down now much more than what I did when I played pump woods games. I really kick myself for it, but Paintball has evolved into a 'Rice Whore' sport. The more flashy you and your gun are.. the more influence you have on hte people around you.

Glitz doesn't impress me at all generally, and I really get a kick out of the guys that look down on my plain looking equipment with a 12 oz CO2 tank stuck on it. However, it is always quite gratifying when I here "Damn you Palmer" as they are walking off the field.


OK sorry to get off topic. Back to the cycling.
Pnematic systems have their limits, as Glen described. Maybe the air in the lines between the 3 way and ram could be replaced with a water/oil driven hydraulic mini system? make it a bit heavier but the rate of actuating would be faster and mroe powerful than air. So basically we would be pushing water with air from a reg.. dunno if that limits anything or not. But dyed green water in clear tubes on a front block would own. (again with the flashiness) [/QUOTE

Air driven hydraulics would be too slow for our needs. Liquid is too dense to move that fast and the storage and recovery harware needed to capture what is vented from the ram whan it changes directions would have to be pretty complex.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nicad


Glen- you da man, but you already knew that.
Thanks for posting this info.. I think its very useful for people to understand differences in pneumatic systems.
Also, I did not realize the QuikRam was designed with a larger shaft.. iv often wondered why this wasnt done (which it has for years, apperantly!) more often.. makes life so much more easier to setup a pinch-before-chop system.

out!

The QuikRam has a 10mm bore with a 3/16" shaft (others use a 1/8" shaft)
On the Blazer, we use a 7/16" bore and a 1/4" shaft. Closing force is about 40% less than opening force and about 20% faster close that open. The Blazer will usually stop on a miss-feed instead of cut it.

[Vegeta]

OK lets look at is this way:

Say you have a line of metal balls that are set on a table in a straight line one milimeter apart. Now you have the same leght of balls, but few balls, and they are placed further apart- kinda spaced out. Now if you took your finger and pushed on the balls spaced one millimeter apart.. the ball line moves better becuase hte balls are right next to each other, therefore it does not take time for hte balls to travel to each other. Now if you goto the spread out balls, and push hte first one, it takes longer becuase the balls has to travel further than one milimeter.

The idea here is that the close together balls are liquid water, and the spread out balls are air. yes, water is heavier and more dense than air, but the water moulecues are much much closer together. for every molecue of water that is mover, one on the opposite end of the string moves too the exact distance, becuase the particles are so close together. Now in air, the particles are much further apart and therefore takes more force to move and object becuase all thsoe partcles have to move to 'build up' enough pressure to move the ram (or whatever)



That is my analysis. Take it and run.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by Vegeta
OK lets look at is this way:

Say you have a line of metal balls that are set on a table in a straight line one milimeter apart. Now you have the same leght of balls, but few balls, and they are placed further apart- kinda spaced out. Now if you took your finger and pushed on the balls spaced one millimeter apart.. the ball line moves better becuase hte balls are right next to each other, therefore it does not take time for hte balls to travel to each other. Now if you goto the spread out balls, and push hte first one, it takes longer becuase the balls has to travel further than one milimeter.

The idea here is that the close together balls are liquid water, and the spread out balls are air. yes, water is heavier and more dense than air, but the water moulecues are much much closer together. for every molecue of water that is mover, one on the opposite end of the string moves too the exact distance, becuase the particles are so close together. Now in air, the particles are much further apart and therefore takes more force to move and object becuase all thsoe partcles have to move to 'build up' enough pressure to move the ram (or whatever)



That is my analysis. Take it and run.

The principal that you are working withis that a liquid cannot be compressed.

Problem is that you forgot that the cylinder has to be evacuated on each opposing stroke and the liquid would take much longer to refill the chamber to move the cylinder. Again, getting through the fittings is the slow down. Due to viscous friction.

[Vegeta]

I was thinking having the area where hte water is completely sealed, and havign a ram push water on one end to push water on the other. The same would work with a vacuum in the tubes. but im talking serious component and it would be too bulky to run... hmmm just brainstorming dont kill me.