Guns, guns, guns

[drg]

Tell me something DRG... Do you wish to shoot at a higher velocity than 300FPS??? Will that make you happy??? If so next time we get in the same timezone I'll make sure and come over and I'll let you decide at what velocity you'd like me to shoot you at and we can have a go.

"So full of logical holes"

No guns in DC is a rule... yip it is... Is it followed???

No guns on campus is a rule... (Some places) And we ALL KNOW that the rule is followed so I won't bother asking.

What you are missing is this... The GOVERNMENT CAN'T DO THAT. Bill Of Rights!!!! Can't be moved. That's why it's written the way it is.

So what you are saying is.... The gov pulls the BOR... Now we are all slaves... Is this what you think??? Guess what... There have been revolutions more than one time in the history of mankind.

Are you really so toad-headed that you really believe that the United States of America should outlaw any and all firearms??? Is that really what you think should happen? Do you really place that much faith in the gov and the police force and in mankind to do the right thing and EVERYONE turn in all their weapons???

Is that what you are shooting for??? Really come on.... Most folks in this discussion are not afraid to voice their opinions. Are you??? Come on let it out.... Tell us all how you think that if the law was passed to disarm all of America and every last law-abiding citizen went and turned in every firearm. Please tell me how you think that just made the US a better place to be. Please... I wanna hear YOUR plan.

So, why do you personally attack me and my beliefs if you don't even know what they are? Point proven yet again, mindless attack mode from the holy warriors, no thinking involved.

Another hilarious thing is... the people who spew about how wrong everything is have no solution and don't/can't understand the only reason they are able to spew their idiotic thoughts is because we have FREEDOM.

I've seen thoughts spewed, both idiotic and sensible, from many places where gun laws are much more stringent than the U.S. You've seen them too. This is the problem with the unanalytical thinking that equates lax gun laws with freedom.

[DevilMan]

Does the constitution say anything about the use of drugs? To me, freedom means doing what I want responsibly, meaning, without causing harm to anyone. And what about the fifth amendment. I don't see anyone getting hot bothered with our government tapping phones and tracking financial and Internet activity. It seems there are other intentions than just protecting our rights the constitution grants us.

Have I ever said anything about drugs?? Nope... I have not. See everyone tries to make it complicated.. its easy. Do what you want when you want... UP TO THE POINT THAT IT INTERFERES WITH SOMEONE ELSE!!!!

You get stoned and pass out at home... go for it... You get drunk hop in a car go driving down the road and hit and kill another person then it's the death penalty. NOONE made you drink. NOONE told you you had to get drunk.. NOONE told you to drive....

Eye for an Eye....

I've long believed it'd be simple to deter theft. Just put a price on body parts. A finger is 5K... A whole hand is 30K... You steal a 50K car you get a hand chopped off. And unfortunately it should be your primary hand. How many times do you think someone is going to steal if they keep losing hands??? hmmmmmmm... Harsh??? Sure it is... But would it stop the BS that the world is going through today??? I bet it'd put one hell of a speedbump in the path!

DM

[CoolHand]

Does the constitution say anything about the use of drugs? To me, freedom means doing what I want responsibly, meaning, without causing harm to anyone. And what about the fifth amendment. I don't see anyone getting hot bothered with our government tapping phones and tracking financial and Internet activity. It seems there are other intentions than just protecting our rights the constitution grants us.

No, make no mistake, the Patriot Act, and all the other freedom grabs undertaken since 9/11/01 enrage a great many of us.

BUT, we're not talking about that in this thread. In this thread we were discussing guns and the second amendment.

IMO, a great many things the feds currently do are unconstitutional and illegal. The way the ATF simply reinterprets the regulations from day to day as they see fit (in order to have a reason to charge people who they deem need to have done something wrong), really gets my dander up. The way that our congress and state and local officials call for totally disregarding our immigration laws makes me very angry. When the feds step in and wholesale confiscate guns in a disaster zone, for the sole purpose of rendering people unable to defend themselves and their property, I start to wonder if the whole ship is lost to the sea already, but like I said before, that's not what this thread was/is about.

One argument at a time, Weedhopper.

[drg]

I don't see anyone getting hot bothered with our government tapping phones and tracking financial and Internet activity. It seems there are other intentions than just protecting our rights the constitution grants us.

Yes this is the problem with wedge issues like guns ... it distracts people from things that really ARE happening, that really ARE threats to freedom. It's easy to push an agenda based around something very tangible and empowering like guns. That is a single issue that is hard to ignore. But it's really part of a much larger picture when it comes to protecting freedom.

It's not so easy to rally people around invisible stuff like what the USA PATRIOT act has made possible.

[DevilMan]

So, why do you personally attack me and my beliefs if you don't even know what they are? Point proven yet again, mindless attack mode from the holy warriors, no thinking involved.



I've seen thoughts spewed, both idiotic and sensible, from many places where gun laws are much more stringent than the U.S. You've seen them too. This is the problem with the unanalytical thinking that equates lax gun laws with freedom.

Why are you posting in a thread about guns and their common place in America and too scared to post what you think is right???

For your information Mr. No Thinking Involved... ANY LAW is a hinderance to FREEDOM. Any and ALL LAWS are such.

Lax gun laws are still laws.. and still infringe upon Freedom.

Unriddle that one...

How about this....

If I were to break into your house while you were asleep with your wife next to ya... and wanted to start taking things from your house and you wake up and hear me and I come at you to get out the door that you are now in my path of escape and have to level you to get out do you think you should have the right to shoot me?? Taze me?? Defend yourself??

DM

[paintballfiend]

Why are you posting in a thread about guns and their common place in America and too scared to post what you think is right???

For your information Mr. No Thinking Involved... ANY LAW is a hinderance to FREEDOM. Any and ALL LAWS are such.

Lax gun laws are still laws.. and still infringe upon Freedom.

Unriddle that one...

How about this....

If I were to break into your house while you were asleep with your wife next to ya... and wanted to start taking things from your house and you wake up and hear me and I come at you to get out the door that you are now in my path of escape and have to level you to get out do you think you should have the right to shoot me?? Taze me?? Defend yourself??

DM

Yes, living without laws is very possible. The only problem is most people can't ever imagine living without them. That allusion of safety keeps them warm at night.

[snoopay700]

Yes, living without laws is very possible. The only problem is most people can't ever imagine living without them. That allusion of safety keeps them warm at night.

Ok, here's my stance on anarchy, i'm an anarchist, i believe it would be the best form of government, but i'm also intelligent enough to know that people are too stupid/greedy/power hungry to have it work. The only time this can work is in small social groups, such as tribes, and it has worked there but that is the only place.

What we need is a government with less federal involvement, but again, that's not what this thread is about, so i should probably stop following you off topic.

[AO Moderation Team]

So, why do you personally attack me and my beliefs if you don't even know what they are?

Well what is Your reason for not saying what they are???? Everybody else has stated their beliefs except YOU which you keep pointing out.

Ok drg I read enough of your crap. Bla, bla bla. If you want to continue in this thread state how you feel or what you believe or get out and back up your stuff with some FACTS. Not this crap I never said this or that, bla bla. I never said how I feel. Let these guys have their discussion. You are warned. Quit with the trolling.

Coolhand, dont activate the filter. If you do fix it. Have to warn you to.

Carry on.

[paintballfiend]

Ok, here's my stance on anarchy, i'm an anarchist, i believe it would be the best form of government, but i'm also intelligent enough to know that people are too stupid/greedy/power hungry to have it work. The only time this can work is in small social groups, such as tribes, and it has worked there but that is the only place.

What we need is a government with less federal involvement, but again, that's not what this thread is about, so i should probably stop following you off topic.

I agree, we can't even post respectfully on a forum without someone moderating it.

[AO Moderation Team]

I agree, we can't even post respectfully on a forum without someone moderating it.

I dissagree, five days and one hundred forty four posts. For the MOST part you all are posting respectfully.

[maxama10]

So, why do you personally attack me and my beliefs if you don't even know what they are? Point proven yet again, mindless attack mode from the holy warriors, no thinking involved.
.

Because the things you have been saying are retarded. I don't condone the personal attacks but all the same... typically when you give an argument towards one side or the other you're taking a stance and portraying your beliefs. If you were afraid of being attacked you should have been more tactful. Point proven: I lol at you.

It's not so easy to rally people around invisible stuff like what the USA PATRIOT act has made possible.

This is about the only post you've made that makes any sense.

Well what is Your reason for not saying what they are???? Everybody else has stated their beliefs except YOU which you keep pointing out.

Ok drg I read enough of your crap. Bla, bla bla. If you want to continue in this thread state how you feel or what you believe or get out and back up your stuff with some FACTS. Not this crap I never said this or that, bla bla. I never said how I feel. Let these guys have their discussion. You are warned. Quit with the trolling.

Carry on.

Freakin' sweet.


-Max




Edit: I believe that this is one of your beliefs

Guns don't kill people. People who say guns don't kill people kill people.

/Laugh out loud at you

[drg]

^ It was a joke, if you couldn't tell ...

Anyway, though I'm sure it won't end the personal attacks, it WILL end my particpation in this thread:

I'm a strong supporter of gun rights. I just find the attitudes of most gun people to be far too unthinking and reactionary. Oftentimes to an alarming degree -- look into almost any thread discussing the 2nd amendment and you'll see gun people basically posting their homicidal fantasies about what they will do with their guns, usually not too subtly directed toward posters in the same thread they disagree with.

You've been attacking someone who is on your "side" ... go figure. It should give you pause.

[DevilMan]

^ It was a joke, if you couldn't tell ...

Anyway, though I'm sure it won't end the personal attacks, it WILL end my particpation in this thread:

I'm a strong supporter of gun rights. I just find the attitudes of most gun people to be far too unthinking and reactionary. Oftentimes to an alarming degree -- look into almost any thread discussing the 2nd amendment and you'll see gun people basically posting their homicidal fantasies about what they will do with their guns, usually not too subtly directed toward posters in the same thread they disagree with.

You've been attacking someone who is on your "side" ... go figure. It should give you pause.

Whether or not you read this isn't really a matter to me as it applies to many more folks other than yourself.

The issue which you have so aptly proven is that too many times people wrap up hidden agendas into things that are VERY much a part of America and a part of our culture. And then use that PRIME topic and discussion to sway and to pull the masses into thinking that a bill to be passed is in support of what they feel is right.

It's no different than "selling" They have to SELL the idea. They have to PITCH the speal. They have to make you want to join the cause. They could go out and say, with the passing of this bill all Federal income taxes will cease!!!! Not a dime will be paid by you into the government piggy bank any more!!! And everyone would rave about it and join the cause.... When what the bill/law really does is cut your take home pay in half. They aren't taxes anymore... They are mandatory contributions.

See... Its simple to sit here and try and say "we attacked someone on our side" but guess what.... You are the type of person (is that a personal attack??? ) ok fine... You REPRESENT (is that better??? See??? Already getiting into the preach one thing and are another) so you were trying to make a point that people who are adamant about their beliefs are wrong in how they go about expressing them. At least they expressed them which is far more than what you ever seemed to be able to do.

How do you explain your actions????

Oh well... I'm off to shoot people. you all have a good day!

DM

[Steelrat]

I've been looking for a thread to bring up this question. Now then, one of my favorite guns is the HK416, but anywho i've been wondering, when the AR15 variants jam so easily in dusty conditions (and just jam more period) why has our military not switched to the HK416 which jams a lot less and would just require replacing the upper receiver? I mean it wouldn't cost too much, it would save lives, and it shouldn't take any more training to use the gun, but instead only our special forces are allowed to use this gun that runs cool.

Because military procurement is not always about buying the best weapon.

Also, it's never just as simple as switching the gun out. If so, we'd have troops running around with some new weapon chambered in 6.8 SPC or something. For every change in the field, there is a HUGE change in logistics that needs to be made. From parts to training, everything needs to be revamped, even for a change that seems as minor as going from gas impingement to gas piston.

[LegumeOfTerror]

I've been looking for a thread to bring up this question. Now then, one of my favorite guns is the HK416, but anywho i've been wondering, when the AR15 variants jam so easily in dusty conditions (and just jam more period) why has our military not switched to the HK416 which jams a lot less and would just require replacing the upper receiver? I mean it wouldn't cost too much, it would save lives, and it shouldn't take any more training to use the gun, but instead only our special forces are allowed to use this gun that runs cool.

its extremely expensive to change out all the uppers, and its only a marginal improvement. the military wont switch because the benefits don't outweigh the costs. the HK416 isn't really all that great, and gas piston systems are not as consistent as direct impingement, as the greater reciprocating mass messes with the harmonics of the barrel. you never see piston ARs in long range shooting competitions because of this. the thing with the M4/M16s is that they have very tight tolerances that make them accurate weapons, but make them more susceptible to fouling. even so in the army tests they covered it with fine dust to simulate sand, it malfunctioned 882 times after TENS OF THOUSANDS of rounds (it functioned properly 98.6% of the time), and was behind by one percent on the other rifles like the Scar, XM8 and 416. considering this was a completely unrealistic test, as no one would fire anywhere near that many rounds without maintenance. the AR-15 type weapons works fine, there is no real reason to replace them until someone makes something substantially better.