Guns, guns, guns

[angrysasquatch]

(anybody listen to the Guess Who?)

Anyways, so instead of pulling the healthcare thread further off-course, I decided it would be better to re-locate it. And please, guys, if this thing is going to only make you angry then just don't bother. I get to the point quickly and I hate "padding".

I'm going to quote people from the healthcare thread, and I type slowly, so don't hold your breath.

[maxama10]

Yeah....

you're either American or canadian.













From my cold dead hands.

[angrysasquatch]

maybe it is your neighbors. We separate you from immigrants. IMO all of your neighbors are good. You dont have to worry about that much immigration.

You certainly separate us from Mexican immigrants, and we don't have close to the problem you have of illegals, but have you walked in downtown Toronto? I'm going to assume that you haven't.

Foreign-born people made up 49.9% of the population. [of Toronto]

Thats a shame, isn't it?

Huh? Please elaborate, you could be saying many different things here, but the internet doesn't allow for tone.

You made most of that up... just babbling away are we. What are the incidents of Home invasion and self defense by guns per year in the US do you think? Do you know? How does one extrapolate that he is not going to be attacked, robbed or murdered in his own home? Heck... why limit that to home? Do you stay home all your life? What about work? Or School, or in your car? Unlikely eh? Well... then why is it in the papers every day? If the general population is not allowed to have guns, then they can steal EVERYTHING and do what they wish. Do you think they will give their guns up? Lets remember... they don't obey laws. And disarming everyone that will obey... makes their lives MUCH easier doesn't it. Its illegal to have one in NY, Chicago and Washington DC... but yet... look at the crime rates in those cities...

There is a use for them every day by every person... to defend yourself and to prevent Tyranny... our founding principles... The first thing a government does before it enslaves you is to disarm you... then they can take away the rest of your rights without fear. I have the same right to defend myself, not only a right but an obligation, as anyone else. No one else is charged with responsibility to defend me and my family. And I have the same right to have the tools that might be used against me by Criminals.

Like Army said, if you don't trust me with a gun then don't thrust one in my hand only to send me over to do your bidding. i.e. If you don't trust me in Peace time then why trust me when you need my help?.

It is in the papers every day because that's what sells. I have never been a victim of any crime, nor seen anything of the sort in my 18 years on this planet. I am sure it happens, because, like you say, the papers don't just make it up.

It is also illegal to have handguns (for the most part) in Canada, look at the crime rate up here. The problem areas in Canada are near the border, where guns are smuggled in from the states. So, if you look at a single city, like New York, there surrounded by gun-toting areas, therefore it is quite easy to smuggle in guns.

Why might you want to elect a government intent on enslaving you? Don't you see that most criminals acquire those tools by stealing them from people, just like yourself. There certainly aren't gun manufacturers selling them to criminals, so let's just assume for a moment that everybody woke up tomorrow and all their guns are gone. Manufacturers are still making them, so you go to your gun shop to but a handgun. He says it's no longer legal for him to sell you a handgun, but he can sell you a hunting rifle, so long as you keep it in a locked metal cabinet. Now, how, exactly are the gangs going to steal those? Now they need an angle grinder or something, and will wake you up by attempting to steal it. In which case you can just call the cops. Either way, hunting rifles are too bulky for any gang to really want them.

I could try and dig this up, but I'd rather be lazy and just state this...take it for what it's worth. But, in this country (USA), there was a time when it was illegal NOT to carry a gun.

The whole basis was that you were responsible for your own protection (whether it be natural elements, hostile natives, thugs, bandits, etc.) By not taking the responsibility to defend yourself, you potentially put the lives of other innocent (and armed) people at risk when they come to rescue you from your distress.

Now, take a look at the world. When unarmed societies get over-run by natural elements, hostile natives, thugs, bandits, etc., and don't take responsibility to defend themselves, they are putting the lives of innocent (and armed) people at risk as they come to rescue you from your distress.

Natural elements don't have anything about the use of a gun as a possible solution, just to get that out of the way. I can see putting up dykes or whatnot to defend from natural elements, but I really don't see any correlation between that and guns.

Care to give an example of the last paragraph? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just saying it would make for a much better argument with a specific example.

[angrysasquatch]

Yeah....

you're either American or canadian.













From my cold dead hands.

Profile changed just so there isn't any confusion. Thought the Guess Who reference might have done it though

[pmstc]

Why might you want to elect a government intent on enslaving you? Don't you see that most criminals acquire those tools by stealing them from people, just like yourself. There certainly aren't gun manufacturers selling them to criminals, so let's just assume for a moment that everybody woke up tomorrow and all their guns are gone. Manufacturers are still making them, so you go to your gun shop to but a handgun. He says it's no longer legal for him to sell you a handgun, but he can sell you a hunting rifle, so long as you keep it in a locked metal cabinet. Now, how, exactly are the gangs going to steal those? Now they need an angle grinder or something, and will wake you up by attempting to steal it. In which case you can just call the cops. Either way, hunting rifles are too bulky for any gang to really want them.

Black market.

and why would you want a hunting rifle to defend yourself?

[angrysasquatch]

Black market.

and why would you want a hunting rifle to defend yourself?

You wouldn't need to defend yourself is the point. Get a big pooch if you want defense.

And the black market gets guns from somewhere, there isn't some "black market inc.". The guns are mostly stolen (no evidence, I know) from people who can't remember how many guns they kept under their couch (my grandpa is like this).

[maxama10]

Huh? Please elaborate, you could be saying many different things here, but the internet doesn't allow for tone.




It is in the papers every day because that's what sells. I have never been a victim of any crime, nor seen anything of the sort in my 18 years on this planet. I am sure it happens, because, like you say, the papers don't just make it up.

I was implying it's a shame you consider yourself American. As you later corrected, you're Canadian.

Actually, I know several people who have had people brake into there homes. In fact I think someone broke into a house of a member from this forum. Was it Derek? He smacked them over the head as they crawled through the window.

Just recently, I have a friend in Eugene Oregon who came home to a deranged bum sleeping in his wash room. He tried to attack them, fortunately he had no weapon and they were able to escape.

Also, I've used my rifle to defend my animals from other wild animals. We had a feral cat run into our garage and start attacking our cats. I shot him in the head with a .22 rifle after he tried to claw me.


Again, if you're certain it happens than why bother refuting it?

-Max

[michbich]

Black market.

and why would you want a hunting rifle to defend yourself?

In Canada, the laws about firearms are completly different from yours. They are rediculous and time consuming to apply for a licence. As far as i know, You can only buy hunting riffles/shotguns and hand guns. I have never seen a firearm that looked like an AK47 or m16 in Canada, even in gun shops. It has been a couple years now that you have to register every single firearm in your possesion.

To be able to buy a handgun now, you have to get a licence for hunting riffle first (100$), than the handgun licence (?$). It is a pita.

[maxama10]

You wouldn't need to defend yourself is the point. Get a big pooch if you want defense.

And the black market gets guns from somewhere, there isn't some "black market inc.". The guns are mostly stolen (no evidence, I know) from people who can't remember how many guns they kept under their couch (my grandpa is like this).

You're main arguments that I see are that

a. there is no situation that requires self defense.


b. Guns should be systematically rounded up and destroyed because people might steal them.


Both are flawed.


a. is flawed because there simply are situations where one will need to defend themselves.


b. is simply


BTW, I'm not getting the whole The Guess Who thing. I do enjoy them though.

[michbich]

We are just jealous that you guys all have the cool firearms and that we're stuck with the plain hunting riffles.

Your argument is impossible to realize. You can take your chances if you want, but i won't be powerless if the time comes. You can still have firearms and keep them secure from robbers if you are a responsible person.

[DevilMan]

You all worry about the crooks stealing the guns. Do you realize how many guns there are??? Do you realize how easily it is to make one? Do you realize that people have been stealing, murdering, raping people since BEFORE the invention of GUN POWDER???? Do you realize that HUMANS FIGHT!!!!! With a gun, a club, a stick, a stone, a NUCLEAR FREAKING WARHEAD!!!!! IT DON'T CHANGE YOU HARD HEADED, IGNORANT, SELF RIGHTEOUS, DELUSIONAL FREAK!!!!

TAKE EVERY GUN EVER MADE OFF THE PLANET IN ONE MOVE OVER NIGHT THROUGH THE POWERS OF DAVIDFREAKINCOPPERFIELD AND PEOPLE WILL STILL FIGHT AND THERE WILL STILL BE DEATH AND THERE WILL STILL BE SOMEONE OUT SOMEWHERE THINKING THAT THE WORLD IS A BETTER FREAKING PLACE BECAUSE OF IT!!!!!

GUNS for the most part are about the most easily accessible, easily used, uniform and all around most common and most efficient means to protect ones self and their belongings and family from those that wish to do them harm. At one time it was a fancy stone on the nightstand, then it migrated to a wooden club or sharp blade, then it evolved to something that uses black powder. SEEEEEE IT DON'T MATTER!!!! IT will always be something!!! So they are the most common denominator. Why do you think that is????

So you keep your head in the sand, and keep believing your fairy tale dreams that the world without guns will be utopic and all will live in happiness with an XMag in every freakin household and there will be no crime, no pollution, no harm, no foul and there will be me and mine brandishing the boom sticks helping to make sure that someone don't come into your house in the middle of the night and run their ideas and their wants and desires up your derierre while you have it up and open for em!!!

Sheesh!!! Some folks just don't get it.... And I'm not even touching upon the "RIGHTS" it "ENSURES" us from the governments that wish to do things to it's populace that we'd rather not have done to us.

Why don't you go and study Hitlers grand plan you tard! Do you realize that he stated to be bringing Germany into the history books as "The First Civilized UNARMED NATION IN THE WORLD!!!!" Why don't you study up on that and see what you think that may have been different if the common folk of Germany had not been DISARMED before he went around inducing the worst case of Genocide to be known in modern times.

You don't want guns.... DON'T BUY EM!!!!! Me.... I'll choose to protect myself and I'll do it with any and all means possible and hell or high water it'll be MY RIGHT to do so. If you want to place YOUR protection in the hands of the government and the police forces then by all means do so. But DO NOT try to push your beliefs and your thoughts on me and try and tell me how I need to live or protect my life.

There seems to be a common thing amongst folks that BELIEVE in FREEDOM and that is... WE don't go around trying to tell everyone else what to do. We leave it up to them to CHOOSE their life and how they want to LIVE it. Then there are those that think FREEDOM means they can go around and PUSH THEIR NOSE INTO EVERYONE ELSE'S FACE and tell them how WRONG they are for doing something. THAT'S NOT YOUR FREEDOM any more than it's MY FREEDOM to shove your nose back through your skull to get it the hell out of MY way.

Now you want to start passing the laws that say I can run you over for getting in my way because I want to go somewhere and you think I shouldn't be there, or that I can FORCE you out of MY way because you stand in front of me and think I shouldn't be going somewhere or make it legal for me to flatline your heartbeat when you decide that YOUR FREEDOM means you can come into MY HOUSE and take things FROM ME because society dealt you a bad hand then maybe you'll have an ear that will listen.

Funny how everyone thinks that it's THEIR RIGHT to try and force others to see/do things the way they think they should be done.

DM

[maxama10]

"I don't want to go on a rant here, but America's foreign policy makes about as much sense and beawoulf having sex with Robert Fulton at the first battle of antitem, I mean when a neo-conservative defenestrates its like...." Peter, "What the hell does rant mean?"


Just kidding, I totally agree. :)

-Max

[michbich]

agreed

[Pneumagger]

IMO we shouldn't have any gun control at all. None. Machine guns, silencers, hicap mags, whatever...

The NFA registry is crap, the BATFE make up thier own rules and work outside of them, and Law only govern the law abiding.

2nd Ammendment: What part of Shall Not Be Infringed is so hard to understand?

[pmstc]

You wouldn't need to defend yourself is the point. Get a big pooch if you want defense.

And the black market gets guns from somewhere, there isn't some "black market inc.". The guns are mostly stolen (no evidence, I know) from people who can't remember how many guns they kept under their couch (my grandpa is like this).

Um, try law enforcement and the armed forces.
Unless you want them to get rid of guns too

Soviet Union established gun control in 1929. From 1929 to 1953, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Turkey established gun control in 1911. From 1915 to 1917 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1976 20 million Anti-Communists, Christians, political dissidents and pro-reform groups, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938. From 1939 to 1945 13 million Jews, Gypsies, mentally ill people and other "mongrelized peoples," unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977 1 million "educated people," unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and executed.

/copypasta