Me and the Glock (26)

[CoolHand]

. . . . . I also agree that a 1911 style can be as safe as any other... My comment is based STRICTLY on my personal experience... As my post way above states, my personal training and muscle memory actually causes ME to hit the safety on and not off on my draw stroke... Which is why I will never carry my Kimber for Self Defense... For those who have shot 1911's for years, this may not present any problem for...

I must have missed it earlier when you posted about your troubles with a 1911 safety.

I can see how that would make things more difficult for you. It's been said by many folk smarter than me - "Use what you know." Doesn't matter if you don't have the best weapon ever made, the pistol you're familiar with and can hit your mark with is by far the best weapon to be carrying.

I didn't want to start a big argument or anything, I was just wondering what happened to Lohman that made his 1911 no longer an option for carry.

[Steelrat]

I just don't get the fascination with 1911s as carry weapons. Great pistols? Definately! I love to shoot em, they're accurate as hell, and I want to get one ASAP.

HOWEVER, IMHO (and I have quite a bit of firearms training) there are much better choices for self-defense carry.

I'm not saying that because it's old, it's not any good. But weapons evolve, and there is a good reason that modern weapons are almost all DA/SA, with a trend towards proprietary DAO designs (DAK, LEM). The Springfield 1903 and Garand are great weapons, but I'd taking a modern rifle over em in a combat situation any time.

[VTLO910]

Well, you have to admit, John Browning was the MAN...! The 1911 Design was awesome and still is...

In my mind, every gun owner should have at least one 1911 in their stock pile...

I think the love for them is a mix of 45 Power, Military use, and durability...


The only turn off for me is that you rarely find one out of the box that does not need tweeking or polished internals etc... So you pay for the gun, and then you pay for trigger jobs etc...

[Aegis]

John Browning is not pleased with Steelrat.

Steelrat failed to mention the Hi-Power, among many other fine designs.

John Browning could have made the Hi-Power DA or DAO at the time (1935) but the market did not support them - even then nobody wanted to buy one for sport use.




By the way, a Glock is not DA. It is SA. That is why you have to cock your glock, beeotch.

[CoolHand]

I just don't get the fascination with 1911s as carry weapons. Great pistols? Definately! I love to shoot em, they're accurate as hell, and I want to get one ASAP.

HOWEVER, IMHO (and I have quite a bit of firearms training) there are much better choices for self-defense carry.

I'm not saying that because it's old, it's not any good. But weapons evolve, and there is a good reason that modern weapons are almost all DA/SA, with a trend towards proprietary DAO designs (DAK, LEM). The Springfield 1903 and Garand are great weapons, but I'd taking a modern rifle over em in a combat situation any time.

Oh no, I'm not going anywhere near a statement like that.

We'll have a huge argument in no time flat (not me and you, but it'll bring folks out of the woodwork).

Like I said before, the best pistol ever created is good for bumpkis if you're not familiar enough with it to be confident of your shooting. I'd much rather have a less than ideal weapon I knew than a whiz bang pistol I'd just bought.

It's just like paintball. A good player don't need an uber-marker to put paint on people.

By the way, a Glock is not DA. It is SA. That is why you have to cock your glock, beeotch.

You got me on that one, but as long and stiff as the trigger pull on one is, it's easy to be fooled.

That's a bit of an embarrassing omission, it's not like I've never shot or had one apart.

Brain farts come in all sizes, but it seems I only stock the big ones . . . . . . .

[Steelrat]

John Browning is not pleased with Steelrat.

Steelrat failed to mention the Hi-Power, among many other fine designs.

John Browning could have made the Hi-Power DA or DAO at the time (1935) but the market did not support them - even then nobody wanted to buy one for sport use.




By the way, a Glock is not DA. It is SA. That is why you have to cock your glock, beeotch.

I didn't omit it. It doesn't have the cult status of the 1911, which is odd, considering it is such a great pistol. However, it doesn't appeal to the .45 cultists.

And no one understood muscle memory, or the effects of stress on shooting, when ol' John was cranking out his designs. No disrespect to him, but technoloigy has progressed. I'd rather have a hi-power than a rock or club, but there's plenty of pistols I'd rather have than a hi-power.

EDIT: WORST thing about a glock. You have to pull the trigger before disassembling it. You wouldn't believe the number of ADs that causes.

Oh no, I'm not going anywhere near a statement like that.

We'll have a huge argument in no time flat (not me and you, but it'll bring folks out of the woodwork).

Like I said before, the best pistol ever created is good for bumpkis if you're not familiar enough with it to be confident of your shooting. I'd much rather have a less than ideal weapon I knew than a whiz bang pistol I'd just bought.

It's just like paintball. A good player don't need an uber-marker to put paint on people.

Oh come on, that's apples and oranges. This subject isn't anything like the paintball gun argument. This is about combat effectiveness. I agree with the confidence subject, but there have been legitimate improvements since the 1911 or Browning Hi-Power were made. I think people tend to idolize certain weapons without really understanding the pros and cons of the design. There is a reason you don't see 1911s in general use by LE. Sure, some SWAT use them, as does FBI HRT, but those are special cases. You can't justify a purchase by saying that those groups use them. They train with them ALL THE TIME, something most of us will not have the chance to do.

And I don't consider a Sig with DAK or an H&K with LEM to be "whiz bang." In fact, their operation is simpler than their DA/SA cousins.


EDIT EDIT: A good example of why I like DAO pistols http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...%20video&hl=en

[CoolHand]

. . . . . You can't justify a purchase by saying that those groups use them.

See!?!

This is why I wasn't (and still am not) going to touch this one.

I personally do not need to justify any purchase I make. I wanted a 1911, I bought one. In a few months, I'll be wanting a Springfield XD, and I'll buy one. Then I'll probably be wanting an H&K USP, and I'll buy one. I see something I like or want, I buy it. I don't need a big list of justifications, and I don't have to know or be told that what I own is the best of the best in every regard, I'm not one of those guys.

Where I live is not dangerous enough that I have to worry about tactics and combat effectiveness when I go to buy a pistol. I keep one loaded at home should someone come knocking, but it's a pretty low probability that anything like that will ever happen.

I primarily bought the 1911, because I like the feel of the gun and how it shoots. Secondarily, I bought it because it's the autococker of the pistol world. I'm very interested in gunsmithing, and the 1911 is a tinkerwhore's dream. There's literally nothing you cannot adjust or tune on to suit your taste (or change just to change it ). That appeals to me, because I am, above all else, a lover of complex mechanical things.

99.97% of the rounds I fire will be punching holes in paper, cardboard, aluminum cans, or making a round hunk of steel go "PING!". Now, shooting is shooting, and some of that will carry over if I ever had to fire a shot in anger, but I'm not going to go out and undertake a huge amount of tactical LE or military type training "just in case".

If the environment changes around here such that something along those lines becomes necessary, then I'll consider it, but until that time comes, I shoot because I enjoy it. I shoot what I shoot because I like it, or wanted it, or because it was on top of the pile and I wanted to punch some holes a box that was talkin' smack and I was too lazy to dig out my favorite. I don't have to own the very best or the most tactically correct. If that's what you have to have, more power to you, but don't look down your nose at me 'cause I don't see things the same way.

And yes, it IS exactly the same as PB. Unless you're a LEO or Active Duty Military, what gun you own and shoot the most makes very little difference. The folks who trumpet one or another platform as "the best" and the only one that anyone should own are just like the kids who buy new Egos every year 'cause the newest one is obviously "better" than last year's model.

I've seen old coddgers who shot nothing but SA Colts (IE .45 Long Colt Cowboy Pistols) that I would not want to get into a gun fight with, not matter what I was shooting. See where I'm going with this?

The fact that for every LE Agency in this country there is nearly as many different issue service weapons only highlights the fact that there is no "best gun". You've got Glocks, Sigs, H&K, Colts, Kimbers, Springfields, S&W's and a host of others floating around out there, and they all pretty much appear to get the job done. If there was a clear cut "best gun" 100% of the time, everyone would have migrated to it by now. Oddly, that hasn't happened yet.

This is headed for one of those classic retarded internet argument comments, I just know it . . . . . .

[Aegis]

Blah, Blah, Blah.



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Actually, I always listen to Steelrat when it comes to carry issues.

I think this whole conversation is really about ADs.

The Glock AD problem probably had more to do with the fact that the original boxes required you to pull the trigger before it would fit, if you didn't it would pull it for you. I think they changed that, but all my tupperware is old school.

A 1911 style seems to demand more attention to detail - maybe carrying cocked and locked gives you a different mindset.

One of the reasons I bought a Buckmark target model was that it had the safety, slide release and mag release in the traditional 1911 orientation. Also converted the CZ75 style comp guns to feel like that, just for consistency.

The main gripe I have about DA pistols is that I find them hard to shoot weak hand or even single hand, strong side - wants to pull to the side. Probably not a combat issue, but my choices were made for competition or sport shooting and didn't have to worry about it.

How's that for a series of disconnected thoughts

[Steelrat]

No it's not, unless we let it. I wasn't asking you to justify your purchases. I was merely pointing out that there are a fair number of people that purchase a 1911 for carry because "LA SWAT" or the "FBI" carry them, and that's just a poor decision. You didn't read what I posted. You, and I, justify it by saying we like to shoot the guns at the range, which is a good reason.

I've seen plenty of posts on this forum (and other) by people who are not LE or military, yet carry a weapon for self defense. I think this is the group that would MOST benefit from carrying a DAO pistol, due to their lack of consistent training, and yet it is the group that seems to be most influenced by carrying what is cool. DAO pistols are not cool. It takes a good amount of practice to become proficient at long range with them, due to the long pull for every shot, while the glocks and da/sa or sa pistols are much easier to shoot out of the gate.

As for LE using a variety of weapons, they do, but they pretty consistently avoid the pure SA guns. As for the rest, the method of operation is pretty much the same, which is really what it boils down to, not brand name. Except for the park police and their damn goofy HK squeeze cockers.

[Steelrat]

The main gripe I have about DA pistols is that I find them hard to shoot weak hand or even single hand, strong side - wants to pull to the side. Probably not a combat issue, but my choices were made for competition or sport shooting and didn't have to worry about it.

The LEM and DAK lower the trigger pull to about 6-7 lbs, but keep the long travel. It's a great compromise. Off hand and strong hand unsupported isn't too hard, canting the gun "gangsta" style actually helps to keep the weapon on target, believe it or not.

Now, try changing mags and clearing jams using your support hand only. Whee!

P.S. I love you.

[CoolHand]

No it's not, unless we let it. I wasn't asking you to justify your purchases. I was merely pointing out that there are a fair number of people that purchase a 1911 for carry because "LA SWAT" or the "FBI" carry them, and that's just a poor decision. You didn't read what I posted. You, and I, justify it by saying we like to shoot the guns at the range, which is a good reason.

I've seen plenty of posts on this forum (and other) by people who are not LE or military, yet carry a weapon for self defense. I think this is the group that would MOST benefit from carrying a DAO pistol, due to their lack of consistent training, and yet it is the group that seems to be most influenced by carrying what is cool. DAO pistols are not cool. It takes a good amount of practice to become proficient at long range with them, due to the long pull for every shot, while the glocks and da/sa or sa pistols are much easier to shoot out of the gate.

As for LE using a variety of weapons, they do, but they pretty consistently avoid the pure SA guns. As for the rest, the method of operation is pretty much the same, which is really what it boils down to, not brand name. Except for the park police and their damn goofy HK squeeze cockers.

Touche'

I'll bow out now, as I think I was participating in an argument that wasn't actually happening. lol

I will say this, the "TactiCool" Brigade does give me pause, especially when they start harping on this and that about which gun is "best" and which tactics are best and and and and. I have to admit, that's the first thing I thought of when you started talking about which is the better combat handgun. I thought, "Oh God, not Steelrat too!"

Happy to see I was mistaken.

[Aegis]

Now, try changing mags and clearing jams using your support hand only. Whee!

P.S. I love you.

I love trying to catch the rear sight with your heel.

And oh, yeah, that is why I still have guns.

[Steelrat]

I love trying to catch the rear sight with your heel.

Rookie. Use your belt or pocket.

[Aegis]

Some of my outfits don't have pockets, and i can't always see my belt.

[Steelrat]

Some of my outfits don't have pockets, and i can't always see my belt.

?