motorcycle guys! and anyone

[MoeMag]

hey hey hey, no bad ideas here. dont bash eachother. the way ya win this is come up with something someone else hasnt done.

Remember 20mm restrictor AFTER a SINGLE throttle body. and a turbo may only be placed AFTER that directly to the engine.

PITA I know. but that just means I need to find power elseware.

[skife]

I can't help but wounder if you have experiance in high HP motors or even racing competatively. Yes the port/polish head with cams, ingnition, independent throttle bodies, pistons, rods, crank, etc. are all good, but it will still not be able to compete with the forced injected motors out there that have the same stuff done.

Ok, the TTS combo may have been over kill, but the TS combo is still being used today. Look at the most powerful streetable Hayabusa in the country, something like 1400 HP with a turbo pumping into a supercharger. Diesel trucks still use them to this day aswell and look at the numbers they can get.

The reason why going with the streetbike engine is because it makes a huge amount of power to wieght and it has an attached transmission. All of its power comes from up on the RPM and that's where they will be sitting at almost the entire time.

I've never seen a turbo to superchager in any race application.

anyways, what i'm trying to say is your running probably 750lbs of weight on this thing. any more than 200ish HP and your going to have a hell of a time keeping the tires on this thing from spinning. I'd focus more on the driving and suspension geometry for this thing than how much power it puts out.

also i seriously hope your exagerating those HP numbers, 1400hp streetable on a bike? I'm calling BS on this. thats like 1hp per cubic centimeter. i think 600hp on a 600cc bike isn't possible either.


after searching the internet the most i've found is about 700hp on a hayabusa. but lets say you can pump enough air and fuel into the motor, what are you using for fuel so you don't get detonation?

I'm not saying that you won't see much higher numbers with boost, But why complicate things when more simple things will suffice. Traction on these vehicles WILL be an issue.

[thahouse]

thats where weight placement and aerodynamics comes in place.. 'Busa engines are a smart choice, since they have high HP potential, especially with the proper boost setup. If you look at most drag bikes, most of them are heavily modified hayabusa's, but require alot of experimenting unless you have someone with experience in bike racing. As for traction, i would venture into perfecting the weight placement in the rear axle and design the cockpit to optimally disperse the majority of the weight of the vehicle in the rear.

Personally, i would venture into a 3 gear slapstick tranny. The logic behind this, is to utilize the low gear ratio for a better and more powerful takeoff, and the top two gears would be for turns and straightaways respectfully.

[thahouse]

after some thought, a dual turbo setup would work great, The only downside of this is that you have to spool up the turbos before you can even utilize them on the track...So, unless you have time to run the engine to spool up, the turbos may be a waste of an good investment. Read up on drag bikes. This will help you understand how to rebuild a high powered engine, and with the knowledge of engineers you say you have on the team, you can definitely utilize this to work as effectively on your project.

[skife]

after some thought, a dual turbo setup would work great, The only downside of this is that you have to spool up the turbos before you can even utilize them on the track...So, unless you have time to run the engine to spool up, the turbos may be a waste of an good investment. Read up on drag bikes. This will help you understand how to rebuild a high powered engine, and with the knowledge of engineers you say you have on the team, you can definitely utilize this to work as effectively on your project.

dual turbos are good, little one spools the big one

[Ferox]

There are alot of things to take into consideration when building something like this.

Power to weight ratios, Suspension geometry, Aerodynamics, Gear ratios, Gear boxes, etc..

As for the engine setup, Forced induction is always a great way to go but only when applied properly.. Feeding a turbo into a supercharger is not a viable option for any race application nor do modern performance or diesel engines use them. Your best option would be a twin turbo setup, with a twin turbo setup you can create a situation where you have a very smooth and flat power band eliminating any lag you'd get from a single turbo setup and giving you the power you need up top where a supercharger could not. Basically a small turbo feeding a larger turbo.

Much of this setup will also depend on intake runner and plenum design, If your runners are too long your motor will be very responsive in the lower rpm's but will make less power up top, same goes for short runners, lots of power up top, no power down below. A good way to cure this, is to use a medium runner design, with individual throttle bodies and air horns fabricated into the plenum, with the proper plenum design you can eliminate most of those problems. With plenum design you have to remember the key is Smooth and straight, if you have too many turns or bends in your intake setup the air will be very turbulent be time it enters the motor and will lose velocity, you especially don't want any sharp bends or turns, even in boosted applications this still comes into effect.

I would also suggest running two Injectors per cylinder, having an extra injector to fire methanol directly into the ports further up stream from the primary injectors will greatly reduce air charge temperature thus keeping the motor from detonating, and it will also greatly increase atomization of the fuel and air before it enters the combustion chamber..thus resulting in more horsepower.

As for the suspension , make sure you have caster and camber adjustments... both can be extremely helpful when fine tuning a race car. Also you will want to spend alot of time with weight distribution, you do not want to much weight in the rear of the car or you will end up with alot of under steer problems, and too much weight in the front will result in over steer problems. Also this can effect the way weight transfers from one corner of the chassis to the other in while turning.

I will post more ideas later after you have some time to digest this and such.

[MoeMag]

READ THIS POST! please.

TURBOS

3.5.4.4 Turbochargers & Superchargers
Turbochargers or superchargers are allowed if the competition team designs the
application. Engines that have been designed for and originally come equipped with
a turbocharger are not allowed to compete with the turbo installed.
The restrictor must be placed upstream of the compressor but after the carburetor or
throttle valve. Thus, the only sequence allowed is throttle, restrictor, compressor,
engine.

[Ninjeff]

yea, most 600cc class engines are running about the same now-a-days. I think the Yamaha feels really nice, but you cant beat Honda reliability.

[Ninjeff]

Its gonna get messed up pretty good. I was just voted in to be in charge of my universities first Formula SAE race team. It was a big suprise for me today! there is a lot of work to do.

Check out some vids...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM3OvAolLcw <another Arizona team Video for this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmp1LiCY5dM <German teams...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ti5G4jFSo&feature=related

It has to run with a 20mm restrictor plate, some custom ECU, and at this point... a lot more than I can think... so that being said... at least a stable easy to get parts platform to mess around with.

I know a lot of you are into bikes... so its a great place to start. haha.

EDIT: oh yeah... fuel injection.

!!!! Holy hell thats fast.


I want one.

[MoeMag]

!!!! Holy hell thats fast.


I want one.

Oh yeah.

Our baja team got tired of going slow.

They run about 400 pounds soaking wet
go 0-60 in around 3 seconds.
top out about 120mph

gnarly stuff.

[Hilltop Customs]

dont forget you cant build it like a drag bike where you push the engine to the limit for 7-8 seconds at a time, your going to be revving the hell out of that thing all the time. Honestly I'm with skife on this, underbuild the engine and worry more about putting the power to the ground.

sandfreestyle: I'm sorry if you think a 1400 hp busa is anywhere near streetable you are and must have never ridden a bike be4. Not to mention IF there is a busa is busa putting out 1400hp it probably has more time/money into it than MoeMag's SAE project is going to take. Stacking turbos and superchargers are not going to help anything if the flow into them is already limited by the plate....they cant compress air that isnt there, so they are effectively dead weight.

I'd worry more about aero, suspension, wheelbase, weight savings, ram air, the differential, effective engine cooling and other aspects that are not limited.....the great equalizer in HP is going to be the restrictor plate, only way you can get more HP is find a way to push/pull a higher velocity of air past that plate(hence ram air, but that will only work when your up to speed) Creating a vaccum(turbo/supercharger) on the back side of the plate wont be as effective as creating a high positive pressure on the outside. IMO getting the HP you have to the ground should be your main concern.

Is there a reason none of thses cars are running wings for downforce?

Any ideas on the tracks your going to be running on? From the looks of some of those videos a car with better handeling will easliy crush one that has more HP.

also like skife said, take a good hard look at e85, it will be more work(a lot more work seeing that info is not as widely available) but it has a lot of benifits.

I almost got in on our car, until I found out we had no chance to drive it, and all our work was property of the school(including ideas/intelectual property) After that I said screw that, I'll build my own after I get out of school in december. Already have a busa engine lined up

[slade]

i wish my college had this competition. all my school cares about is math/science/research...

back to engine selection: really, any jap inline 4 engine will be about the same. take your pick of a honda CBR, suzuki GSXR, or yamaha R6.

the way ya win this is come up with something someone else hasnt done.

not really. with something that's been around as long as racing, especially when you're on a college team, the way you win is by doing what everyone else has done, just better.

[MoeMag]

i wish my college had this competition. all my school cares about is math/science/research...

back to engine selection: really, any jap inline 4 engine will be about the same. take your pick of a honda CBR, suzuki GSXR, or yamaha R6.


not really. with something that's been around as long as racing, especially when you're on a college team, the way you win is by doing what everyone else has done, just better.

I like that. We will do it better. A Quality shoots straight kinda thing

We settled on the Honda CBR600 engine today. A few of the people on the team have a lot of experience with them. That being said... I am confident in their backgrounds to take full use of the platform.

That leaves me, with just as many of you have said... the other aspects of the design.

we are running on fairly tight small tracks. Those vids are kinda deceptive... as a representation of the ture nature of the various aspects of competition.

I think the Handling is more important that HP idea is right on.

So... how does one get all that power to the ground, as light as possible, and be able to control the monster.

so im really tired and leave it at that for now. im headed to sleep. be back for more.

[slade]

keep us updated. i'm almost considering trying to get some sort of team together for my college (either robotics or racing... probably not going to happen considering the workload here)

just out of curiosity, what college do you go to? i would assume youre a mech-e major

[Hilltop Customs]

other than the initial design, getting the power to the ground is one of those things that has to be dialed in at each track.

I'm guessing you are going with double a-arm independent suspension with remote mounted coil overs(using a rod mounted to the lower A arm to turn a cam located on the upper frame which compresses the coilover) in both the front and rear. Its what most open wheel cars use from what Ive seen. It gets the coil over under some body work so it doesnt create drag and keeps it centrally located in the car. It also makes ride height adjustable independent of spring pre load, basically it is the suspension what you want to use. Just make sure to keep everything adjustable....the angle/lengths of your A-arms will have a huge impact on your camber as your suspension compresses. Do you get a general idea of suspension geometry or do you have to just wing it and look up everything for yourself? If it was me and they provide you with no info, I would probably look up the top competitors from past years, find pics of their cars and calculate every possible measurement you can(get some digital pictures and use them to produce 3 views and then build models in solidworks/cad/whatever you use). Reverse engineering FTW literally.

Spring rate will a pita to figure out untill the car is finished and you know how much weight is on each tire, but dual rate springs will probably be needed.....dampening and rebound will have to be adjustable on the shocks.

Keeping the CG low and centered will play a big role in traction.....dont forget to include the driver when figuring where the CG will be located.

IDK i'm half asleep, most of the crap ive said is just genral stuff that you probably already have talked about.



if you really need some ideas look up the ariel atom lol

Where do you go to school and whats your major?