Previously-deported man arrested in drive-by shooting of 7 year-old girl.

[Duzzy]

Snip

*Massive Ninja Edit*

I've come to two conclusions. The first being that I think you're less interested in having a discussion, and more interested in touting your opinion as truth and everything else as stupidity. If I'm wrong I apologize, but that's the impression I'm getting.

The second is that either I'm not being clear in my arguments, or you're ignoring my point completely (And again if that's not the case I offer my apologies.).

My point is this:

If you're a gang-banger pushing drugs and you need "x" amount of people to sell, and "x" amount of people to defend your territory then I seriously doubt you care who they are or where they're from as long as they get the job done.

If you somehow magically get rid of every illegal alien it won't change the fact that "x" people are still needed. And when there are no illegal aliens left you have to fill those positions with... US citizens. If you secure the borders and get rid of all drug imports they'll start producing them in the US.

I'm not arguing about border security, the need of, the lack of, etc. My point is that I don't think it will do anything in the long run. It might cause a short term decrease as gangs recruit new members and new sources of drugs (or what have you) are found or created. The amount of gang members may decrease slightly, but in the long run the people who head the gangs want money and they'll do what they have to in order to get money whether we have secure borders or not.

If you want to get rid of gangs a secure border is not the solution IMHO. It's a feel better solution that will do exactly what? It will replace criminals from abroad with criminals from home, drugs from abroad with drugs from home. I guess I can't honestly see how it will cause a real noticeable decrease in gang activity.

If you want to see a decrease in gang activity I think that more after-school programs, social improvements, and people in prison would be a much more effective, and helpful step than securing the borders...

[Lohman446]

Wait a minute. So you are actually making the argument that if this man was not in the country someone else would have committed the same crime. I'm not sure if thats dreadfully fatalistic or pessimistic. Either way I'm fairly certain that girls parents would not agree with you.

What is the purpose of any justice system if it would have simply happened anyways if person X had not done it?

[Twistedpsyche]

I'm with Lohman on that. With 12 million or more illegal aliens in this country, what do you expect? Honestly I don't care if some of them are "good honest people". They are illegal. Illegal, is not honest. If they want to come here, fine, I have no problem with that, but do it legaly. Don't give me stupid excuses like, "the immigration system is broken, we were here first, you took the land from us 200 yrs ago" or some other crap like that.

I read an article in the LA times some time ago talking about the very disproportionate amt of illegals involved in crime in CA. It was over half. The article also went on to talk about how a vast majority of people in the LA county jail system were illegals. And they weren't there because they were illegal they were there for other crimes, most violent.

Let's also not forget the drain on our socioeconomic system. Illegals taking advantage of the healthcare system, not paying. Hospitals all along the border have been suffering because they are not allowed to turn people away, but they never get paid either.

Oh and disease. People coming in to the country who have not been imunized. (sp?)
There have actually been lots of cases (in border cities where there are a lot of illegal immigrants) of diseases popping up that we had eradicated in this country years ago.

The system may suck, but it's there for a reason. Build a wall, kick them all out, fix the system, then let the right ones back in legally!!

[Destructo6]

But to me a secured border is a feel good thing.

Coming from someone who lives about as far away from the southern border as you can be, I'll take it for what it's worth.

I'd venture to say that 90% of home invasions and about 75% of shootings that occur in Tucson and Phoenix involve illegal aliens and smuggling activity.

then I seriously doubt you care who they are or where they're from as long as they get the job done.

[drg]

I'm surprised no one has discussed where the girl and her mother were from and their immigration status.

[zondo]

*Massive Ninja Edit*

I've come to two conclusions. The first being that I think you're less interested in having a discussion, and more interested in touting your opinion as truth and everything else as stupidity. If I'm wrong I apologize, but that's the impression I'm getting.

The second is that either I'm not being clear in my arguments, or you're ignoring my point completely (And again if that's not the case I offer my apologies.).

My point is this:

If you're a gang-banger pushing drugs and you need "x" amount of people to sell, and "x" amount of people to defend your territory then I seriously doubt you care who they are or where they're from as long as they get the job done.

If you somehow magically get rid of every illegal alien it won't change the fact that "x" people are still needed. And when there are no illegal aliens left you have to fill those positions with... US citizens. If you secure the borders and get rid of all drug imports they'll start producing them in the US.

I'm not arguing about border security, the need of, the lack of, etc. My point is that I don't think it will do anything in the long run. It might cause a short term decrease as gangs recruit new members and new sources of drugs (or what have you) are found or created. The amount of gang members may decrease slightly, but in the long run the people who head the gangs want money and they'll do what they have to in order to get money whether we have secure borders or not.

If you want to get rid of gangs a secure border is not the solution IMHO. It's a feel better solution that will do exactly what? It will replace criminals from abroad with criminals from home, drugs from abroad with drugs from home. I guess I can't honestly see how it will cause a real noticeable decrease in gang activity.

If you want to see a decrease in gang activity I think that more after-school programs, social improvements, and people in prison would be a much more effective, and helpful step than securing the borders...

I'm up for discussion...

I will concede that simply eliminating illegals will not eliminate crime, but it will reduce that factor by a large percentage. Gang violence falls under a huge heading of "crime" and I am not so naive to say that Americans don't form up into gangs. But I don't think that you can deny that there is a violent portion of illegal aliens in this country who are in gangs. The law hasn't done anything to them, other than to harass them, so why would they obey our laws? They're not citizens here, so there is no social contract with them. They, essentially, are outside the legal system in some areas. Thank God for Joe Arpaio who will step up and actually enforce the laws that are written.

Maybe more after school programs and social improvements would work, but it won't work as well as strong parental involvement with the kids when they're young.

I'm in agreement with Lohman, Twisted, and Destructo... DRG brings up an interesting point (Bang & Breach are you happy with the discussion?) On Twisted's note, I can tell you that down here in San Diego there have been outbreaks of TB from illegals!

[Destructo6]

I can tell you that down here in San Diego there have been outbreaks of TB from illegals!

I've been exposed to TB 3 or 4 times by way of contact with illegal aliens. Thankfully, still negative.

Measels has been the serious disease outbreak around here, also brought in from the south.

It will replace criminals from abroad with criminals from home, drugs from abroad with drugs from home.

That's both untrue and silly at the same time. People won't start to commit crime because others aren't there to do it. And there's no reason why any country, not merely the USA, should have to deal with a criminal element from abroad.